COMMUNICATION FROM THE CHAIR

THE SPEAKER: Hon. Members, I welcome you to this sitting. I also warmly welcome the new Member of Parliament representing Kyadondo North, hon. Kasule Sebunya. We congratulate you for having won the by-elections and you now succeed the former Member of Parliament, hon. Kibirige Sebunya, who happens to be your father. You are taking up a great responsibility; we all know and remember the great performance of the late hon. Kibirige Sebunya.

Elections are over; you are now representing not only your party, the NRM but everybody residing within your constituency. We expect you to work for all of them and serve them without discrimination. I have just handed you some important documents, namely the Constitution of Uganda and a copy of the Rules of Procedure, which we use here and other related documents. You are expected to read and internalise them because they will assist you in performing your work as a Member of Parliament. You will be assigned a committee where you will work but you will be free to join other committees to see what is happening there. I wish you success in your new mandate. You are welcome. (Applause)

Hon. Members, with us in the House we have members of Soroti District Council led by the speaker and the Chief Administration Officer (CAO). This is part of the capacity building initiative with the Parliament of Uganda. You are most welcome and we wish you a successful interaction with us.

I have just received sad news about the demise of Mzee Onegi-Obel, former Governor of Bank of Uganda, Member of the Divesture Committee and former Constituent Assembly Member for Jonam. He died today, 16 December 2008, at Case Clinic in Kampala. I ask that we rise to observe a minute of silence for the deceased.

(The Members rose and observed a minute of silence.)

THE SPEAKER: Hon. Members, it appears this is the last week in this year that we have here before we start the Christmas recess. It, therefore, means we have today, tomorrow and Thursday. Can we sacrifice Friday and turn up in big numbers so that we can clear some of the work, which is still on our table? You will let me know your decision at the end of todays proceedings. Thank you.

3.11
THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (Prof. Ogenga-Latigo): Thank you, Rt hon. Speaker. I hesitated because I thought that the Rt hon. Leader of Government Business would welcome his new member to the House as the tradition has been. Since he chose not to (Laughter)- I rise, following our parliamentary etiquette, and welcome hon. Sebunya on behalf of the Opposition to this Parliament.

In welcoming the honourable member, I will say what I have said before - elections are extremely important things and they must be held in such a way that at the end, everybody is satisfied. I therefore cannot fail to express my unhappiness and extreme dissatisfaction with the Electoral Commission. It holds a by-election, a single election, and the outcome is a group of participants going to court. When will the country be spared the incompetence of the Electoral Commission?

While I welcome the honourable member, I do hope that he will remain a member because I hear they are already contesting his election. However, as a member I appeal to you that when the time comes, you join us in addressing the question of the competence and conduct of the Electoral Commission of Uganda. Otherwise, you are welcome. (Applause)

3.13
THE PRIME MINISTER AND LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS (Prof. Apolo Nsibambi): The Rt hon. Speaker of Parliament, I wanted to give the Leader of the Opposition the first chance (Laughter)- and then of course I come in later. I am always gracious. May I, on behalf of Government, welcome hon. Sebunya to this House! (Applause) Your father was a great intellectual who was a practical politician and he was a strong member of the Movement. So we trust that you will perform very well. Welcome. (Applause)

MR KUBEKETERYA: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I am standing on a point of procedure. You have told us that we are closing this week and we shall have recess, but we should all know that the standing committees time is lapsing on 11th of January next year. The question is: shall we have a vacuum or how are we going to proceed on this matter?

THE SPEAKER: Something which I am used to is court procedures. With court procedures, there are times when things are done but should the date fall on a public holiday, that day is skipped until another day comes. If we have Christmas recess for example, the proper date to deal with that subject will be when we come back.

CONSIDERATION AND ADOPTION OF THE REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL SERVICES ON THE PETITION ABOUT BAT VALLEY PRIMARY SCHOOL AND THE AD HOC COMMITTEE ON THE OWNERSHIP OF BAT VALLEY PRIMARY SCHOOL

THE SPEAKER: Hon. Members, you will recall that the last time we dealt with this subject, hon. Byandala produced a document which was tabled, and that was Form No. 18 under the Land Act, but we did not know whether it was authentic or not. I asked the Minister of State for Lands to go and check in his ministry to find out whether the document, Form No.18, was authentic and this is the report we expect, hon. Kasirivu.

3.16
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR LANDS (Dr Kasirivu Atwooki): Thank you, Mr Speaker. After your directive I went and made extensive consultations in the ministry and found it prudent that I should give a status report on this land. This report is in response to your directive to me to present a status report regarding Bat Valley Primary School land, which was being debated at the time.

I had a discussion with my Commissioner for Land Registration and Assistant Commissioner for Land Inspectorate immediately after your directive. We consulted our land records relating to the subject land, which is described as LRV 433, Folio 16, Plot 110 William Street, Kampala. Sir, here below is the position from the Ministry of Lands, Housing and Urban Development:

Records show that the registered trustees of Shree Sanatan Dharma Mandal held a lease of 49 years registered under LRV 433, Folio 16 from 01 November 1957 and it expired on 31 October 2006. The user, under that lease, was restricted to school use. Clause 2(d) of the lease agreement states: ¬ use or suffer to be used the said land and buildings or any part thereof otherwise than as a school without the previous consent in writing of the governor.

The registered trustees were the founders of Bat Valley Primary School which was originally known as SSD Mandal Primary School. In 1964, SSD Mandal Primary School fell directly under the administration of Kampala City Council and was later renamed Bat Valley Primary School.

It is stated that at the time of forming the Custodian Board, Plot 110 William Street was never declared as abandoned Asians property and the Administrator-Generals letter of 03 March 1992 states that Plot 110 was never expropriated. However, our register shows that on 24 April 1998, a certificate of re-possession was registered in the names of the registered trustees of Shree Sanatan Dharma Mandal. Nevertheless, the re-possessed lease expired in 2006 and the land reverted back to Kampala District Land Board, which is the controlling authority.

Under minute KDLB 18/14 2006 of its meeting held on 13 November 2006, the Kampala District Land Board granted a new lease of 49 years to the registered trustees for school use. The Bat Valley School management disputed this grant.

Although it is the controlling authoritys discretion to offer the property to a person of their choice, in doing so they have to take into consideration the government policies, laws and procedure. Government policy guidelines 4.2 and 4.3 on land administration provide that in exercising their powers, the district land boards shall automatically renew and extend leases of Ugandan citizens and in case of leases owned by non citizens, they shall be eligible for renewal only.

In view of this policy guideline, in giving out a fresh lease grant Kampala District Land Board should have taken into account the fact that the user of the land at the time was a government facility. Locals from the school indicate that over time, there have been immense contributions from government and parents to the level where it is now.

There is information from the school, which I also want to share with Parliament. They indicate that this school has been in existence since 1938 and that it became a public school in 1964 like any other non-government founded school. It was never a tenant of the Custodian Board nor declared an abandoned property.

They go on to say that in 1956, the Buganda government contributed 50 percent of the completion of the 24 classroom blocks during a fundraising campaign and the foundation stone was laid by the then Governor, Mr Miller. They say that they think the trustees between 1962 and 1972 were compensated by the Government then.

They continue to say that the parents have a big stake in the school as they have contributed to its development since 1956 by putting up more buildings including the current administration block, the theatre, 21 units for the staff members, tailoring unit block and the toilets.

The Land Act, section 59, states that the function of district land boards is to hold and allocate land in a district which is not owned by anybody or authority; this is free land which is not occupied or utilised by anybody or authority. This provision therefore does not apply to Plot 110 William Street, which has had parallel interests with Bat Valley occupying and utilising the land and the registered trustees holding the lease. The law goes on to say that the board shall facilitate the registration and transfer of interests in land, which means that the role of the Kampala District Land Board in this case, after the expiry of the original lease to the registered proprietors in 2006, was to facilitate those occupying and utilising the land to acquire registrar of interest.

From the records, we found a consent judgment between Kampala City Council and the registered trustees in respect of the lease registered under LRV 465, Folio 10. However, from our records, this lease is for the registered trustees of the Bugiri Education Society Limited. This could have been a mix up. Assuming that the consent judgment was for the LRV 433, Folio 16, the consent judgment was in respect of the original lease which expired in 2006. However, the dispute is on the new grant to the registered trustees. From our land records, this grant is not yet registered. Any offer or grant is subject to land being available and free from any disputes at the time of the survey. This is contained in clause 6 of form 18, Mr Speaker, which you have referred to.

If the matter which I was directed on only referred to Form 18, I am sure the last statement answers the query - any offer is subject to land being free from any disputes. I beg to report, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: Help us, Mr Minister; does Form 18 exist in your ministry?

DR KASIRIVU ATWOOKI: Mr Speaker, I have said the form exists but I have also said that there is a dispute. Clause 6 says that one of the conditions is that the offer is subject to land being free from disputes, and there is a dispute.

THE SPEAKER: How do we solve the dispute? Where do we go?

DR KASIRIVU ATWOOKI: Mr Speaker, this is now an opinion from Kasirivu Atwooki. I have already said that Kampala District Land Board in trying to solve this problem should actually give priority to those who are using it and utilising it and that will solve the dispute. (Applause)

3.27
MR ERIAS LUKWAGO (DP, Kampala Central, Kampala): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Allow me to extend my sincere thanks to the minister for this report. This being the third report on the matter, I think it puts the matter to rest. The clarification given here is that the lease, if at all it was granted, would be subject to the facility being available. The guidelines regulating government facilities are very clear. On land allocation, you give priority to those who are using the facility, and since 1965, Government has been holding this facility as a government property and therefore it should remain as such. So I just wanted to thank the minister for the good work done.

In addition to that, the lease which is not yet registered is ineffectual. Actually, according to this very clear report, the document which had earlier on purported to have been operated and acted upon is ineffectual. So, that puts the matter to rest. I pray that the report be adopted and the school remains a government facility for all of us. I thank you. (Applause)

3.29
MR JAMES KUBEKETERYA (NRM, Bunya County East, Mayuge): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I would also like to give information in agreement with what the minister has told us. As a committee, we used the research office of Parliament and this is what the research office gave us from the Ministry of Lands. It says:

The Clerk to Parliament,
P O Box 7178, Kampala.
RE: Legal ownership of Bat Valley Primary School land.
This is in reference to your letter AD 88/461/01 regarding the above matter, which has been passed over to me with instructions to give the following information that you require:

1. That records in our office show that the property was leased to the registered trustees of Shree Sanatan Dharma Mandal School for school use and registered in their names on 24 April 1958 under LRV 433, Folio 16.

The lease &

THE SPEAKER: Hon. Member, is there a dispute about that? I think let us deal with the situation after the lease has expired. There is no use going back.

MR KUBEKETERYA: Mr Speaker, in addition I would like to move a motion under rule 68 that the debate be closed on this matter and we put the question. (Mr Byandala rose_)

HON. MEMBERS: There is a motion.

THE SPEAKER: Hon. Members, that motion is procedural but when the Chair realises that there are other people who want to contribute, he may allow a continuation. Hon. Byandala has been at the centre of this so it is at least fair that he says something.

3.31
MR ABRAHAM BYANDALA (NRM, Katikamu County North, Luweero): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. By the time we left the controversy was on the authenticity of the form. The minister has categorically said that the thing was done properly and the document is correct.

Secondly, from the submissions, the procedures were correct and followed.

Thirdly, the ministers report on page 2 in the second bullet says that government policy guidelines 4.2 and 4.3 on the land administration provide that in exercising their powers, the district land boards shall automatically renew and extend -(Interruption)

MRS SENINDE: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I rise on a point of order. The hon. Minister of State for Lands has presented a report and he has answered the queries. We know very clearly that much as there is any institution that has autonomy, it must not work outside the laws, policies and guidelines. We clearly know that much as Kampala City Council has got the mandate to do whatever it wants, it must work within the policies, the laws and the guidelines. So, is the hon. Member in order to keep on informing us about what we have already gone through and rotating around something that we want to resolve?

THE SPEAKER: Hon. Member, did I hear you say Kampala City Council? If it is so, then I can say that Kampala City Council has no power over land in Kampala.

MRS SENINDE: Mr Speaker, I want to make my point clear. I am talking about the land board.

THE SPEAKER: Okay. You have raised a point on assumption that Kampala District Land Board did not follow the law. It is an assumption.

MR BYANDALA: I thank you very much for your wise ruling, Mr Speaker. In any case, I was not talking about Kampala District Land Board; I was referring to a report which the minister has just brought here and I was reading: Government policy guidelines 4.2 and 4.3 on the land administration provides that in exercising their powers, the district land board shall automatically renew and extend leases for Uganda citizens and in case of leases owned by non citizens, they shall be eligible for renewal. That one refers to leases and owners of leases and not use.

The issue of use is very important. Bat Valley management and the trustees are all in the same field of education and when you look at the lease conditions, they say as long as it is a school. So, until this organisation comes up and says they are changing the use of these premises from a school, this Parliament must be fair. We should be

THE SPEAKER: Hon. Members, let us do our part. Certainly, this is a matter that is going to court. We are not going to give ownership of land to one side. Let us end the debate, give our judgment and leave the parties to find a solution. We cannot give ownership of land to anybody when there is a district land board. Let us just finalise, adopt the report and then we leave it. So, I now put the question that the report be adopted.

(Question put and agreed to.)

(Motion adopted.)

MRS SENINDE: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I would like to give praise to God. I thank you very much, honourable members. (Laughter) I am glad that God has helped us find an answer to the problem of Bat Valley. We have stood our ground to ensure that the citizens of this country, especially the urban poor, are catered for. (Applause) For that matter, I want to thank you very much, honourable members. This is the spirit in which we should always work in order to support and protect our people. Thank you very much. Praise be to God.

THE SPEAKER: Yes, but as I told you, hon. Member, we cannot as Parliament give ownership of land. That is under the district land board.

There is a special team that is here. The team comprises a television crew from the Spanish Public Television. They are here shooting a documentary featuring how Uganda has been able to achieve the UN Millennium Goals. Please, accord them the usual welcome. You are welcome.

MR LUKWAGO: Mr Speaker, I also rise to extend my sincere thanks to this august House for this noble cause. For once at least we have exhibited (Interjections) yes, as far as schools in Kampala are concerned, I am extremely happy especially now that this decision has been made in respect of a school in my constituency.

Mr Speaker, with your permission allow me serve notice that I will be bringing another petition in respect of Nakivubo Blue Primary School, which is also threatened with demolition because Kampala City Council wants to create a taxi park there. A petition is on the way and I appeal to members to exhibit the same sentiments as you have done this afternoon. I thank you very much.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

3.39
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (Ms Ruth Nankabirwa): Mr Speaker, may I request those concerned to distribute my statement please? I have copies for everybody. This is a statement to Parliament on the status of the peace talks between the Government of the Republic of Uganda and the Lords Resistance Army (LRA).

Mr Speaker and hon. Members, you will recall (Interruption)

PROF. LATIGO: Thank you, Mr Speaker. According to the Order Paper, we are supposed to receive a statement from the Minister of Defence. The entire Parliament and this country know that the government delegation to the peace talks in Juba has been led by the Minister of Internal Affairs assisted by the Minister of Foreign Affairs. The whole country also knows that the Ministry of Defence has been responsible for the military response to the crisis and the conflict in Northern Uganda.

As we read the Order Paper, it was clear in our minds that the Minister of Defence would come to make a statement on the assault that the UPDF, combined with forces from the Democratic Republic Congo and Sudan, launched against the LRA. So, is it really fair to this House and country that the Minister of State for Defence rises to make a statement on the peace process when the country is waiting to hear what is happening in respect of the assault that Defence announced?

THE SPEAKER: What is the report about?

PROF. LATIGO: Mr Speaker, the statement that the Minister of State for Defence has circulated is a statement by the hon. Minister of Internal Affairs yet what is on the Order Paper is a statement by the Minister of Defence.

THE SPEAKER: Well, I think the Chair may not be in position to answer your question. Since this is government business, let me ask the Prime Minister who is in charge of Government Business to explain that.

3.41
THE PRIME MINISTER (Prof. Apolo Nsibambi): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Any minister can make a statement on behalf of government provided we agree on such a statement. In this case, as the Minister of State for Defence she can make a statement on behalf of Government and we are ready to answer any questions that will arise from her statement. (Applause)

MR REAGAN OKUMU: Mr Speaker, this statement is very clear, let alone what is on the Order Paper, that it is by the hon. Minister of Internal Affairs/ Leader of the Government delegation to the peace talks. The practice in this House has always been that where the minister himself is not here, when the deputy is here the deputy stands in for him. In this case, I can see the deputy leader of the government delegation to the peace talks. Hon. Okello Oryem is seated right here and I am seeking clarification as to why in the absence of hon. Ndugu Rugunda, government does not allow hon. Okello Oryem to present a report on behalf of hon. Rugunda. (Applause)

PROF. NSIBAMBI: It is our decision that the Minister of State for Defence shall make this statement and when questions arise, the relevant ministers will be able to answer. This is an agreed position. I have accepted it. Please, let us proceed with this matter.

MS RUTH NANKABIRWA: Mr Speaker, let me remind this House that I am the chairperson of the Peace Talks Support Committee, which has been given the responsibility of briefing Parliament and Cabinet. I have stood here before and briefed Parliament on the progress of the peace talks. I have also been holding press conferences to brief the whole country. Under that mandate, I was requested by the leader of the government team to continue playing that role, much as they are still here in Uganda. (Applause)

PROF. OGENGA-LATIGO: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am not challenging the competencies of the Minister of State for Defence to present any matter on behalf of government because that is the duty of the Executive to assign. My only problem is that this statement is by the Minister of Defence.

What my honourable colleague wants to present is a statement by the hon. Minister of Internal Affairs. It is only fair that the Order Paper is amended to reflect this and then we can proceed with business. Otherwise, the two are not the same. I do not know whether my logic is too up or what. (Laughter)

THE SPEAKER: Hon. Members, let her make the statement. At the end of the day, you can say it lacked the content because the person who made it did not have any knowledge. I cannot force anything because I do not know. The Prime Minister has said that was their arrangement.

MR KASSIANO WADRI: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I do understand the predicament in which you are -(Interjections)

THE SPEAKER: I have no predicament at all. (Laughter)

MR WADRI: The question, which is being put across, is not for us only today; it is for posterity. We are saying in future when people come to read the Hansard, what is on the Order Paper must rhyme with what is being presented. I think that is the contention. It is not about who presents it. I do not know procedurally what it will cost us as a Parliament to amend our Order Paper so that the whole thing flows. I think that is what we are only asking for -(Interjections)- I cannot decide because making and preparing the Order Paper is not my responsibility. It is your responsibility -(Interjections)- yes, we want things done in a straight manner.

PROF. OGENGA-LATIGO: Mr Speaker, this afternoon after we had met as Acholi Parliamentary Group, I had in mind to come to you to raise the matter of the fighting that was reported as a matter of national importance. When I received a copy of the Order Paper and I saw that there was going to be a statement by the Minister of Defence, I assumed in my ordinary way that the Minister of Defence would come to inform us about that fighting. Now I come to find a statement - I have just scanned through this statement and it does not even make reference to what has been published in the media.

If this is the statement about the conflict or the negotiations -(Interjections)- It is just a paragraph. What is mentioned there is not what is in the newspapers -(Interjections)- hon. Kutesa, I am telling the truth. The reason we are saying that let this be amended is so that our Rules of Procedure do not catch up with us before we deal with this matter adequately. The Rules of Procedure say ministerial statements will be debated for a limited time, so this is to allow us to be able to raise the matter as a matter of national concern. This is the only reason why we are contesting this.

THE SPEAKER: Well, as you saw, I got a copy of this statement as you got yours and there was a statement by the Minister of Defence. It was not within my jurisdiction to say, Put this or put the other. Therefore, it was listed and it is the Minister of Defence as far as I am concerned.

However, after you have heard the statement, you may be free to criticise it because it is lacking this or the other. But I do not see how we can say, Do not make a statement; let the Minister of Internal Affairs come here to make a statement. There could be cross-cutting issues. If you want to amend, amend it.

MR OKUPA: Mr Speaker, I rise up here to move that item No. 5 on the Order Paper be amended to read, Ministerial statement by hon. Minister of Internal Affairs/Leader of Government Delegation to the Peace Talks. I beg to move.

THE SPEAKER: Okay, is the Minister of Internal Affairs ready to make a statement or does he wish to? Honestly, we are wasting a lot of time and yet we have a lot of work. Please, make your statement.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

3.50
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (Ms Ruth Nankabirwa): Mr Speaker and hon. Members of Parliament, you will recall that on the 26 August 2006, the Government of Uganda and the LRA signed a cessation of hostilities agreement under which the LRA were to assemble in two places: Owiny-Ki-Bul in Eastern Equatoria and Ri-Kwangba in Western Equatoria.

On 14 April 2007, following the LRAs failure to assemble in any of the two areas mentioned above, the parties agreed that LRA assembles in Ri-Kwangba, Western Equatoria, Southern Sudan. The LRA has not, up to now, assembled. Instead, they have continued killing innocent Congolese and Sudanese citizens, abducting and forcefully conscripting them into their force.

Colleagues, you will also recall that 10 April 2008 was agreed and set as the date for signing of the final peace agreement. Joseph Kony never showed up on that day for the ceremony and His Excellency the President of Uganda, Yoweri Kaguta Museveni, on his part travelled to Juba as previously scheduled.

After a number of consultations, cultural, religious and political leaders travelled on appointment to Ri-kwangba to meet Joseph Kony. They stayed there for a week and came back without Joseph Kony showing up. After this, the peace talks stalled.

Eventually, the chief mediator, H.E Riek Machar, Vice-President of the Government of Southern Sudan, supported by the UN Secretary-Generals special envoy to the LRA affected areas, convened a stakeholders meeting in Kampala on 05 November 2008. The meeting was attended by a delegation of Southern Sudan officials, the African and international delegates observing the peace process, delegations of the LRA and the Government of Uganda, political, cultural and religious leaders, civil society representatives and Ugandas development partners.

During this meeting, the stakeholders strongly urged: the LRA to desist from carrying out further attacks, and unconditionally sign the final peace agreement before the end of November 2008. The LRA was further urged: to assemble in accordance with the provisions of the agreement and thereafter ensure the earliest release of children in accordance with clause 2.11 of the Agreement on Disarmament, Demobilisation and Reintegration.

After consultations that were held between the LRA, the office of the UN Special Envoy, the Government of Southern Sudan and the Government of Uganda, November 29th was set as the date for Joseph Konys signing of the final peace agreement. His Excellency Yoweri Museveni was scheduled to sign the agreement in Juba on Tuesday, 02 December 2008. Arrangements for the ceremony were made, for example on LRAs request, four truck-loads of food items were delivered at the assembly area for the signing ceremony.

The Signing Ceremony that was scheduled for 29 November 2008: on 29 November 2008, the UN Special Envoy, the Peace Talks Secretariat, cultural, religious and political leaders, the government delegation and other international delegates observing the peace process and some representatives of Ugandas development partners travelled to Nabanga on the way to Ri-kwangba, the LRA assembly area, where the ceremony was scheduled to take place.

After a lot of hardships, the LRA delegation, cultural, religious and political leaders met Joseph Kony and some members of the LRA high command. Those who went for these meetings reported embarrassing and degrading treatment by the LRA. They were subjected to body searches and many of their valuables, for example spectacles, watches, money, mobile phones, hankies, rosaries, wedding rings, et cetera were taken away. Some of these items were not returned. They also reported that the LRA alleged that they were not aware of the final peace agreement signing ceremony.

Given this state of affairs, a combined force of UPDF, SPLA and the Congolese Government Forces (FARDC), on Sunday 14 December 2008, launched an air strike against LRA camps in Garamba. All the attacks were on target. The UPDF shall, however, give details later. The operation is continuing. The aim is to force Joseph Kony to go to the assembly area to sign the agreement. (Laughter)

We are grateful for the support of the DRC and Southern Sudan that have allowed us to use the airport for refueling and as staging points for the operations. The operation was agreed upon and coordinated at the highest political levels of the three countries - Uganda, the DRC and Southern Sudan.

We advise Joseph Kony to go to Ri-kwangba assembly area. If he does so, nobody will attack him there because this is a gazetted area for the agreement. We also call on him to sign the agreement and release all the children, a demand he has been ignoring.

Mr Speaker and hon. Members, I wish to conclude by assuring all Ugandans that the prevailing peace in Northern Uganda will not be disrupted. I thank you very much for your kind attention. (Applause)

THE SPEAKER: Thank you very much, Minister.

4.01
THE SHADOW MINISTER OF INTERNAL AFFAIRS AND HUMAN RIGHTS (Mr Hussein Kyanjo): Thank you Rt hon. Speaker. I am grateful that at long last there is a report slightly touching on a matter that has been making us extremely uncomfortable since Sunday evening.

Honourable members here know for a fact that this peace agreement that has been talked about so much stipulated a permanent ceasefire. The minister has not indicated whether this permanent ceasefire was broken by Kony in Uganda. Instead he is reporting to this House that Uganda has actually broken this permanent ceasefire. That could be left aside; Mr Speaker, there are questions we would like answered and many Ugandans are anxious to know the answers to these questions.

Why was this House not informed as is stipulated in our laws? This is an operation across the border (Interruption)- I seek for your protection, Mr Speaker. Enthusiastic ministers are very willing to inform the House now but they were unwilling on Thursday last week.

On Sunday evening, I called the chairman of the Committee of Defence, hon. Kasamba, asking him about what I had heard on BBC. He told me he did not know anything about that operation. I made desperate attempts to call the Minister of Defence, but it was not possible to get him. I tried to call the Minister of Internal Affairs and his minister of state, I was not successful either. I thought that by looking at the Order Paper and anticipating the statement from the Ministry of Defence, they would have to tell us who was informed instead and who authorised the operation so that we avoid the status of not understanding who actually sent the troops across the borders of Uganda. We want to know who is supposed to authorise operations of the military outside Uganda.

We want to know what is being referred to as Congo and Sudan because these two countries these days are intricate, and these are honest submissions. We really want to know. Are we dealing with the Congo of Joseph Kabila or we are dealing with the Congo of Laurent Nkunda? (Interjections) These are honest submissions and the minister will be in position to answer.

Are we dealing with the Sudan in Khartoum or we are dealing with the Sudan in Juba? The fear I have in addition to that is that consistently from yesterday, up till 2.00 0clock this afternoon, the authorities in Southern Sudan have distanced themselves from the military operation. They said, We are peace makers; we are not involved in this operation. Just make a revision in your communication with the people you deal with over there.

For the last 20 years, war was an option to this country. Ugandans through their representatives would like to know the new magic that is going to make it so simple this time around to win the war that made it so impossible in the last 20 years. Why war and not talks? Whereas in terms of talks you may have costs ranging from bed, breakfast, lunch and supper and probably transport, the first reports in a war are causalities of human life. There is a tendency for Ugandans, especially those in government and in the army, to think that lives that are not their own are not important. We would like to be assured whether this really is a wise decision.

I want to conclude by asking whether this decision to go to war put into consideration the psychology of our people in Northern Uganda. We have been here united as a House to appeal to our people to go back home. They are not fools; right before Christmas you are invading an enemy who has been ruthless to them and you are urging them to go home. On behalf of my colleagues in this particular sector, I wish to register our disappointment over the speed in which this action was undertaken and the way it has been operated. I thank you, Mr Speaker.

4.08
MR LIVINGSTONE OKELLO-OKELLO (UPC, Chua County, Kitgum): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I travelled to Garamba. It was not my first time, not even the second but it was my third time. We left on the 27th, arrived in Juba and we were straight away put on helicopters to go to Ri-Kwangba. When we arrived there, we spent one night and the following day, 28th, we were supposed to go and hold a meeting with Joseph Kony. We waited until about 6.00 p.m. and then he called saying we could now leave a distance I think of about 16 to 18 kilometres. The roads were so bad and it took us two hours. Two vehicles got stuck, one had its fuel run out but we managed to go. When we arrived at Ri-Kwangba at about 8.00 p.m., we found LRA soldiers waiting to welcome us. Even the food that was taken from here had just been delivered in four Lorries. They were just heaped in the open. They welcomed us and then we started walking across to go to Garamba Forest, about two kilometres. We started at about quarter past 8 p.m. and we arrived at about 9 p.m. But within the distance of two kilometres, we found three LRA check points. They checked us and the way we were checked, even here in Uganda -(Laughter)- sometimes we are even more thoroughly checked than what I saw.

It is true they took away telephones from us and other things but it is not true to say that even rosaries were taken away. I think let us be fair. Really if we want to solve this problem -

THE SPEAKER: Did you have a rosary? (Laughter)

MR OKELLO-OKELLO: We have to speak the truth because if we come here and make statements mixed with propaganda, this problem will never be solved and we shall be wasting time.

We arrived at about 9 p.m. and we spent the night. In the morning, we received a message that Gen. Joseph Kony wanted to come and greet us at 8 oclock in the morning. At exactly 8 oclock he came, very smartly dressed in a generals uniform and good shoes. We thought that the final peace agreement was going to be signed on that day because he was so excited. He came and shook hands with everybody and we were so excited.

Then he told us, Have your breakfast then we start the meeting. We finished eating breakfast at about 10 oclock and we waited until 1 p.m. when he came. But when he returned at 1 p.m., I told those who were seated near me that there was going to be no signing. This was before he even reached his seat. He had changed into gumboots with more or less a T-shirt, different from what he was wearing in the morning. So, I knew straight away that there would be no signing.

Kony then started to address the gathering for one hour without anybody interfering. When they finished, a number of us, about seven people, contributed, including me. The meeting started at 1 p.m. and lasted till 6 p.m. Then someone made a mistake and asked for a one hour break. It became too dark and he said, Tomorrow.

The following day, he sent about seven members of his high command, led by Maj. Gen. Caesar Acellam and they talked for about another two hours before we could join them. Before we ended that meeting, Kony who was in this town nearby, sent a message that he wanted his cultural leader, the home one, and his clan leader and the members of the delegation. These people went to see him and the cultural leader said he could not speak because his boss, our paramount chief, was not there. So they came and picked the paramount chief. These people went and met for about one hour then we were told to wait and take pictures with Gen. Kony. We waited but he never came although members of his high command came and took photos and were merrymaking.

The point I want to emphasise here is that nothing was stolen. Whatever got lost, we cannot be so sure that it was LRA because what happened -(Interruptions)- can I make my statement?

What happened is that when we left Nabanga, we did not carry any luggage with us. We thought we would go and come back. But when we arrived, they said, You are not going; the meeting is tomorrow morning. So, a call was made to Nabanga for our luggage to be collected from the various tents and be taken to Ri-Kwangba and then from Ri-Kwangba, the LRA would carry them on their heads. So, from our tents, our luggage was collected by SPLA. They took those things to Ri-Kwangba and then from the Ri-Kwangba the LRA took over. So, we cannot be certain where the losses occurred, if any.

I lost a bottle of wine -(Laughter)- but the LRA do not drink and they do not smoke. So, I think I am more or less sure where my wine went -(Laughter) - because on the other side there is no drinking. You are not allowed to drink or smoke.

So the story is that when we arrived back home, on the second - maybe before I come to that, on the first day, we had a joint meeting, chaired by the UN special envoy, President Chissano and Riek Machar and attended by the Uganda Government delegation, the LRA delegation and the elders from Uganda. In that meeting it was agreed that the peace process was still on. That was number one. That was the message we were given to bring back despite the fact that Kony did not sign.

Two, President Chissano told the meeting that, today, 16 December 2008, he was going to New York to report to the Security Council about the status of the peace talks. He is on his way today. And that is why what happened on Sunday is puzzling to some of us. What was so urgent that it could not wait even for this report to be made and the response received?

Mr Speaker, when Kony was talking, he talked about very many things. One of the things he told us was that the other side, the Government side, was talking peace while preparing for war. He said they were attacked by UPDF but they repulsed the attack; they were attacked by SPLA and they repulsed the attack and so was the same with the Congo Army. So, he was asking whether Ugandans were serious on the peace process.

Kony read to us text messages from Uganda and abroad telling him not to sign. One particular text message was from Brig. Otema Awanyi, who is the commander of the 4th Division. He called Kony on Friday, 28 November 2008 and said, Tomorrow if you do not sign, you are dead. We are already there; the moment you refuse to sign, we are going to kill you. Another message that he read was from a lady in Gulu called Joyce Lake, who listed a number of people killed by Kony and she concluded by saying that &now you want to make peace with Museveni and come and enjoy. To us it means you and Museveni had conspired to finish the people of Acholi. You come back, you will find us here. This is a lady from Konys own sub-county.

Another one was from somebody called Onen Ojwang in the UK. He also mentioned the name of one of his former delegates, Santa Okot. He also sent a message urging Kony not to sign. So you can see that there are so many vested interests in this peace process. There are some people who are not looking at the interests of our suffering people; they are just looking at their own interests. When we came back, for example the moment we landed at Entebbe, I switched on my telephone and I found so many messages. People had called asking whether we were beaten and whether some of us were in coma. They said that it was the RDC of Gulu, Ochora, who had called radio stations in Gulu to say that we were badly beaten by LRA and that some of us were in coma!

Mr Speaker, this thing never happened. I think the people of Uganda should really open up their minds and tell the world whether they want peace or not because this way, definitely peace will continue to elude us. So, I think the ministers statement included some of the things that should not have been in a ministerial statement because a ministerial statement is a serious document. Its content should stand the test of time. But I find this document I do not know the purpose of this document, whether it is for information, or for calling on us to prepare for war, I do not know. But I think it is just an information piece of paper. I thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

4.22
THE MINISTER, OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT (SECURITY) (Mr Amama Mbabazi): I thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I rise to support the statement and give further clarification on a few issues. First and fore most (Interruption)

MR AMURIAT: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. The Minister of Security has just risen up to say that he would like to make some clarifications (Interjections)- information and clarifications. We were told earlier on that this document is owned by Government and this is what the Prime Minister stood here to tell us. Given the fact that we have just had a handful of contributions actually two contributions to this ministerial statement wouldnt it be prudent for the minister to allow backbenchers and the frontbenchers on this side to debate this statement before he rises to give clarifications that he claims to be giving? Otherwise what the minister seems to be doing is to modify this statement to try and add value to it in order to make it look good.

THE SPEAKER: Is this directed to me or is it directed to the Member holding the Floor?

MR AMURIAT: Mr Speaker, I need guidance from you on whether we shouldnt be allowed to debate this statement before the minister responds to it.

THE SPEAKER: Please, can you proceed?

MR MBABAZI: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. As I said, I rise to support the statement and to give further clarifications here and there for the benefit of this House and the country at large. The question about the deployment of troops outside Uganda is clearly covered by our law. As we all know, our Constitution in Article 210 commanded Parliament to make a law to regulate the deployment of troops outside Uganda and the UPDF Act was passed by this Parliament and its date of commencement was 2 September 2005. In section 39 of that law, it says The President may deploy troops outside Uganda& So, the deploying authority is the President of the Republic of Uganda.

Secondly, this section talks about deployment in respect of peacekeeping and peace enforcement and it says in subsection two that &deployment of troops for purposes of peacekeeping shall be done with the approval of Parliament& and I would like to inform this House, Mr Speaker, that the current operation in Congo is not peacekeeping. In subsection three of that section, it says: Where the President deploys troops when Parliament is on recess, the Speaker shall immediately summon Parliament to an emergence session to sit within 21 days after the deployment for purposes of ratifying that deployment.

So, even in that case, Mr Speaker, where the President

THE SPEAKER: An hon. Member is seeking clarification.

MR LUKWAGO: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Minister says that this mission is not for peacekeeping. I am wondering what it is?

Secondly, I want to know whether it is a hot pursuit or not. I am asking this because it involves deploying troops outside Uganda and a war situation is only possible when it is hot pursuit. So, are you on a hot pursuit of Kony?

MR AMAMA MBABAZI: Mr Speaker, peacekeeping is a very well and defined concept. It means that where there has been belligerence or people fighting and those fighting agree to live in peace with each other, they ask a force from outside to help them keep that peace, but obviously this is not the case with Kony in Northern Congo.

Peace enforcement is an action exclusively mandated to the United Nations where there is action that threatens international peace. So, the United Nations, through the Security Council determines that the World would impose peace on belligerence, but obviously we are not talking about this in this case.

Section 40 of this Act talks about the agreement relating to deployment of troops outside Uganda and it says and I will read it: Where troops are to be deployed outside Uganda under a multilateral or bilateral arrangement with other countries, the Minister shall enter into an agreement in this section referred to as a status of forces agreement, with the host country or organisation.

And adding to what the Minister said, I would like to say that this particular deployment was a result of two things. One was about a regional mechanism because we have had the Uganda Government holding meetings in the region.

In April 2006, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and I then as Minister of Defence addressed the United Nations Security Council. We also presented to that council what we called a regional mechanism for the resolution of this problem, which had been a result of wide consultations within the region; with the United Nations itself and with what we called core friends of Uganda that included the US Government, the Government of the United Kingdom and the governments of Norway, Netherlands and South Africa.

In those meetings we resolved to adopt a regional mechanism because we realised that the presence of Kony in Northern Congo posed a threat not only against the security of Uganda, but also to the security of Congo, Southern Sudan and possibly wider. The United Nations Security Council adopted this resolution. The outcome of it was the appointment, by the Secretary General, of former President Joaquin Chissano as a special envoy of the Secretary General to this area to help bring to an end that threat. That was one.

Two, following the many heinous actions of the LRA in the Congo itself and on which I am going to give you details about, the Congo Government deployed troops that moved against the LRA militarily; 15 of them were killed.

All of you may know that MONUC the United Nations Mission to Congo did deploy forces when the Kony armed groups attacked Congolese civilians and as you may know or may not know, as result Kony killed 50 Guatemalans who were Members of MONUC.

Following all these actions, there were widespread consultations among the governments all over and it was decided that this menace of Kony causing untold misery to the people wherever he was particularly in the Congo and Southern Sudan, had to be brought to an end. However, at that time the Government of Southern Sudan made a proposal to President Museveni to the effect that a peace negotiation be effected. As we said in the statement, President Museveni agreed with President Kiir that peace efforts be carried out. That has been going on for the last two years.

But when clearly it was evident to everybody and I hope including hon. Okello-Okello - that Kony clearly had no intentions of signing the peace agreement or ending this problem peacefully, the Government of the Democratic Republic of Congo - where Kony is and which therefore takes full responsibility of his actions on the Congolese territory yet it has full responsibility to protect its citizens - decided to take action by applying the regional mechanism that we long had agreed upon.

The Congo Government did request the Uganda Government together with the Government of Southern Sudan to give it support in this action. So, the action that the Minister referred to was as a result of the initiative by the government of the Democratic Republic of Congo in compliance with the regional conference on peace in the region.

Therefore, there is no law that has been broken. We have complied with the law and at any rate the deployment of these forces - when eventually the matter about the extent and so forth is done - the President obviously will be within time to inform Parliament about that deployment to seek its ratification.

Point No. 2 -(Interruption)

MR OKELLO-OKELLO: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the hon. Minister for giving way. I am seeking two clarifications. Firstly, he mentioned the appointment of Special Envoy, President Chissano. Chissano to my knowledge is the first envoy to be appointed not to a country but to LRA affected areas. I wonder whether the Minister would throw light on that one, whether it was a normal thing to appoint an envoy to areas not to a country.

Secondly, the final peace agreement has not been signed by President Museveni up to now. I want the Minister to clarify whether it would not be better for the President to sign and say, Kony, it is now up to you. I have done my part. (Laughter) Because if -(Interjections)- Mr Speaker, in my understanding, the two principals have both refused to sign and why should one fight the other for not signing when both of them have not signed?

MR AMAMA MBABAZI: I can immediately respond to that. As I said the appointment of President Joachim Chissano by the Secretary General of the United Nations was a result of the Uganda Government presentation following wide consultations with the people I mentioned and the United Nations itself, including Congo and United Nations Mission in Sudan.

We all agreed that the presence of Kony in Northern Congo caused a threat not only against Uganda and Congo but actually against the wider region including Southern Sudan and Central African Republic. Therefore, we agreed - and Central African Republic was fully on board - we agreed that we must have a solution together. And it is because of the acceptance of this principle that the UN Security Council did take a decision which the Secretary General complied with by appointing President Chissano to the region that is affected by the activities of Kony. So, it is precisely because of acceptance of the concept represented that that appointment was made; and of course the United Nations did (Interruption)

MR ONYANGO KAKOBA: I thank the honourable minister for giving way. I just wanted to throw some light on the appointment of envoys, as a scholar of international relations. (Laughter) I know envoys can be appointed for countries but in situations where there are problems; the UN can decide to appoint special envoys and it is not only in the LRA affected areas, we have envoys in Darfur and other areas which are affected. So, it is not just countries but even in areas where there are problems, they can appoint envoys. I thought I needed to give you that information.

MR AMAMA MBABAZI: I agree with my honourable colleague that H.E Chissano is really not an ambassador, accredited to a specific state. He is an Envoy of the UN to cover a particular situation and this situation goes across borders.

Secondly, the question was: why didnt President Museveni sign first? Well, as we all know and as the minister said in the statement, President Museveni actually went to Juba; hon. Okello-Okello knows this. He went to Juba in order to be together with Kony to sign. Kony did not sign. He did not come. You know, hon. Lukwago, if you are asked to go on the floor to dance with a partner, and the partner does not show up you do not dance alone. (Laughter)

The normal way of doing things is that when you are partners, you do things together and President Museveni was ready to sign and it had been agreed that Kony would sign on 29 November 2008. You know previously, they were both supposed to be in Juba. So, they were going to sign on the same day. But this time, it was a specific agreement that Kony signs on 29 November 2008 and President Museveni signs on 2 December 2008 a few days later, in Juba and the other in Garamba. That was a new arrangement that had come up and Kony did not sign. Obvious Museveni could not go to sign when the other condition had not been fulfilled.

Two quick points: has Uganda broken a permanent peace cease fire? Obviously not! (Interjections) I do not know where that cease fire is. There was interim cessation of hostilities agreements and even those had time frames. That time has passed. The minister responsible has made a statement to that effect, so there is nothing like a permanent cease fire. I have not heard of it and it does not exist.

MR SAM KUTESA: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the minister for giving way. Not only did this cease fire have time limits, but it had also conditions: that you have cessation of hostilities and then assemble in Garamba and earlier on Owiny Kibul. Secondly, that he must release children and women.

Even when these were being extended, the conditions of which had been put there, were being dishonoured by Kony all the time. I thought that I should inform you that not only was there a time limit to these agreements, but they had conditions which were breached. The children and women have never been released; the assembly has not taken place.

Thirdly and finally, why attack Kony? Why attack Kony at this point in time? Ah, first of all, I would like, Mr Speaker, to commend the Leader of the Opposition for the great statement he made, which was covered by the media very prominently for supporting this action by the UPDF [Hon. Members: Hear! Hear] and I am rather taken aback but not surprised that Members of the Opposition on the Front Bench have contradicted their own leader but that is alright. (Laughter)

It is really not absolutely necessary for me to repeat the details why Kony - there should never have been a cessation of hostilities against Kony. Kony has committed the most horrendous crimes against people in Uganda. He has killed (Interruption)

MS AOL: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you, Minister for giving way. I am going to give you two clarifications. One was you agreed it was even through the efforts of Uganda to involve His Excellence Joachim Chissano in the peace talks; he is the UN envoy.

It is true that today he is gone to New York so can you clarify if the government peace team, the LRA and then other stakeholders were there in Juba and they had a meeting and they knew that His Excellence was going to New York today to consult with the Security Council. Can you really inform us if you honour the position of the UN envoy into LRA/Government of Uganda peace talks?

The second clarification is: we do not yet have a truth and reconciliation commission in place and the peace process to me was going on until last Sunday. Who has already given that position of the LRA exonerating government and putting LRA to have committed the worst atrocities in the war; the 21or 22 years of war? At the moment the two years of the peace process have given a lot of stability to the Northern Uganda and yet Government is choosing the military option. So, can you clarify those? Thank you.

MR AMAMA MBABAZI: Mr Speaker, it is a fact that Kony and his group have committed horrendous crimes against humanity. I have personally visited areas where these atrocities have happened. I, for instance, when the massacre of 225 ordinary civilians in Atiak took place, I arrived a day after the attack and I found the dead bodies. Who does not know about the massacres in Barlonyo? Who does not know that Kony cooked people in a pot - chopped them and cooked them? Who does not know that?

It is a fact. I was saying that the reason why Kony must be attacked is because he has committed horrendous crimes against people in Uganda. (Applause) But he has extended this criminal trait into the Congo and into Southern Sudan and the Central African Republic. He has killed civilians; he has abducted children; in Uganda more that 20,000 children were abducted. Some of them sold into slavery in the Sudan.

It is a fact that Kony has been using these peace talks to buy himself time in order to rebuild a force to fight. And testimony for it is the fact that he has been fighting against the Congo Government against (Interruption)

MS ANYWAR: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise on a point of order. We are here debating a ministerial statement and the Minister for Security has taken literally half of the time we are supposed to debate this. And in the process he is leaving the ministerial statement, which we have copies with us and taking us into the information of things which happened long time ago, which we are not debating here.

Is the honourable minister in order to delay us from debating this paper, which was presented by the government and taking us back to issues, which happened long time ago and are not related to what we have here? Is he in order, Mr Speaker?

THE SPEAKER: I think you are anxious to give us details so that we are convinced of the situation. But my concern really havent we debated this for a long time? The Leader of the Opposition had whispered to me that he had wanted to clear a certain issue. But shouldnt we really conclude?

MR AMAMA MBABAZI: So, I respect the honourable lady.

THE SPEAKER: I think we should conclude.

MR AMAMA MBABAZI: I am concluding, Mr Speaker. Actually I said in conclusion that I want to inform this House that it is obvious that Kony was using this time to rebuild in order to attack. And, therefore, as a responsible government, which the NRM Government as you all know, is, we were duty-bound, together with the international community, to take action to keep the peace of the world. Thank you.

THE SPEAKER: I think we should agree that we really end this debate.

HON. MEMBERS: No, we have not debated.

THE SPEAKER: Yeah, but there are rules. A ministerial statement should be debated for 30 minutes. I see your concern but really, how long are we going to spend debating this thing?

5.05
THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (Prof. Morris Ogenga-Latigo): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I did not rise to stop my members from making contributions because this is a statement from government and my members are free to debate it.

I rose because in the first instance, I expressed my concern because I had expected that a statement by the Minister of Defence should be on the Floor so that I sort out something that appeared in The New Vision newspaper which said, Opposition Leader in Parliament, Prof. Ogenga-Latigo has welcomed the attack on LRA bases in Garamba.

It is also appropriate that my brother, hon. Amama Mbabazi, commended me for this. But I would like to let him know that last night I was on KFM with the army spokesperson. Anybody who listened to what I talked about on KFM and what I talked about in the media is not a welcome. The word welcome, it is only a journalist who does not know me that can associate me with invaluable pronouncement of, I support; I welcome. I am a professor -(Applause)- I do not welcome things or not. I will give you a position on the matter because we profess.

Let me tell you what I told the media yesterday. Over the weekend, we were in Lira and the issue of the Juba Peace Process came up. It was a meeting of the Greater North Parliamentary Association supported by CARE. A presentation was made and there were strong appeals for Government to restrain itself. There were strong appeals not to be jeopardised. But in my usual way, I got up and gave an analysis. It is only when you have understood the situation correctly that you can define correct actions. And many times I stand on this Floor to try and analyse situations correctly so that correct actions are taken.

What I said was this: that where the peace process has reached, we are in a state of stalemate. The LRA are comfortable with being where they are as long as they are not attacked -(Interruptions)- Yes! Yes! Then I said that for the Government of Uganda, as long as the LRA are not in Uganda, the state of affairs in the North is such that people will continue to go home.

The only thing that was holding our people was the fact that we thatched our houses with grass. After April when the grass is burnt, you do not move until December when the grass is mature and you can have grass to thatch the roofs. But as long as people believe that the status quo remains, people will continue to go home and therefore, I said, this cycle of promises are not happening and can go on forever but the only thing that will move the process, outside the equilibrium will be some events. I mentioned, amongst the events that could do that, a disagreement within the LRA where some people say, This thing is delaying us from going home. If such disagreements happened, it is possible that there could be an internal split.

I also said that the other thing would be a military attack. I explained to people and I have said this over and over. I said that the first time we went to Nabang, we landed in Maridi by plane. From Maridi to Nabang is 125 miles; it took us 14 hours. I also told people that if you fly from Juba to Nabang you will cross only three main roads even when you are flying with helicopter for two hours. And I said that the terrain, therefore, in my assessment, is not amenable to a military operation initiated by the Government of Uganda. That was my position.

Now when this happened, first I brought this context and then when I brought this context, I raised the questions which they have addressed here. I said, Is this a well thought out approach? In the first place, when you launch that attack, are you sure that that attack will fatally deal with the LRA? And I said, if it does not, the LRA is like a cobra, or a lion, or a buffalo. If you wound it and you do not wound it critically, there will be consequences. (Interruptions) Yes!

That was my analysis and this is an analysis that people must appreciate. I even said that if there are still any LRA moles in Northern Uganda now, then they are triggered to act. Just one ambush or one gunshot on a bus in this holiday period could cripple the faith of the people in the peace process. And so, I asked, Are we sure that what we have done took care of this element?

Secondly, when we went to Sudan for the first time, on our way back by road, we carried a young Sudanese. Somewhere along the way, somebody passed with a bicycle but he passed very quickly across the road. This young man was like a possessed person. He was saying, Ton, ton and he wanted to jump out of the vehicle. The LRA caused so much fear in the Sudanese. I asked myself, If we have not fatally wounded the LRA and they respond in Southern Sudan, what effect would you have whereby if you flew by helicopter you would find that the Sudanese were trying to resettle in their villages? Actually if you walked on foot, you would just see homesteads and small trails that whither away. If those homesteads went and got attacked without defences and you create fear, you will reverse every effort that the Southern Sudanese have made in resettling their people. That was my concern.

I also told them that we should not talk about the Congo Army. You know they were running from Nkunda here even with good weapons and good roads. The LRA would be battlers. That was my argument. And so yesterday I asked the army commander whether he had considered this.

The other element, which is very simple and to which my brother made reference for heaven sake, the only time when we can sacrifice to buy rice and meat and good clothing is Christmas and end of year. It is the only time that we feel like there is some life and in the very week leading to Christmas, you launch an attack. Are you really concerned about the feelings of the people? These are the questions that I raised yesterday. But I can assure you that if military means were effective; I would support it.

I would also support any military action that is logical but this one defies all the logic that I understand because the LRA I asked the spokesperson, Major Ankunda. I said is that the report? We went for a break and he said Oh, I have just got a call that our soldiers are within range. I asked him how he would then define the casualties. You have given those you have attacked a complete 24 hours to remove even the evidence of the people you killed. I know you will come up with figures that we killed 50 or 60, but what are we doing as a country? That is the position.

I can tell you that if we go the way we are going, and I heard and I think many Members heard Riek Machar last night and this morning saying very clearly that, It is the Government of Uganda and the Congolese. For us, we have sealed our border. In yesterdays paper, they were even talking about paratroopers, ground troops and then later they said, Oh, it was bombing and that the clouds or mist prevented further bombing. We do not even know the truth.

But let me assure you. We the people of Northern Uganda want this war ended. We are the victims; we are the people who are in peace limbo. We cannot move one way or the other without certainty about peace. So, let no debate be such that you portray us as demons in this process. It would be very unfair and therefore when we urge caution, we do so from our own experience.

In the past, they used to say, Why dont you condemn& and when you condemned, the next day they would come and wipe your village while the people who asked you to condemn are safe. So as we say this, the LRA can be attacked but it is those Congolese who will be wiped out and if this process could even keep these people in suspense and some of us have argued this that if this peace process can keep these people in suspense and allow time for the ordinary LRA (Interjection)- hon. Okello-Okello would have told you that each time we went there and nothing happened, and hon. Oryem Okello is here you could see the disappointment on the ordinary rank and file of the LRA because each time we went they said, This time we hope you will finish this thing so that we go home. Even this Kony that you think will come back is in a dilemma because those soldiers - the ordinary LRA with whom we have interacted, with whom we have talked about home - Kony no longer trusts them. He doesnt trust that if he sent them to Uganda, they would do his bidding and come back and I can assure you (Mr Lukwago: Clarification.] please, let me finish.

MR LUKWAGO: Thank you, Leader of the Opposition, for giving way. You have passionately talked about this issue but there is one question that is disturbing me. There are reports that one of the reasons Kony was hesitant to sign is because there is a warrant hanging on his head from the ICC and you said you are involved in this process. It would help us here to understand whether actually it is true that Kony insists that the warrant of arrest which was handed down by the ICC should be vacated before he appends his signature on the peace accord. So, is it really true? If it is true, then what do we do about it? Thank you.

PROF. OGENGA-LATIGO: I will make brief reference to that as I conclude. But the point I was trying to make is, and I am sure the Minister of Defence and their intelligence will tell you that many of the ordinary rank and file of the LRA want to come home. If Kony deployed them, I can almost guarantee that he would not get them back. That is why strategically, Kony went to Central Africa and abducted Central Africans and Congolese. So, some of us understand this and when I hear this story about Kony coming back, it is very unfortunate.

Earlier on as a country and Parliament we were very joined together in the process of finding peace. Government may as an afterthought seek to explain itself in the record of this conflict. It is well known. What government should really explain to our satisfaction is the timing; this urgency which doesnt even allow President Chissano to report to the United Nations, which doesnt even allow President Museveni who gave Joseph Kony his telephone number to engage with Kony -(Interjection) that is not my business. If President Museveni didnt even give his telephone number, I would not make reference to it because it is not my business what the two of them do but once it is done, it is my duty to comment about it and to give my views and that is all I am doing.

So I am saying this very passionately; let us end this attempt to divide the people who should help in this process and I can assure you that Government alone cannot resolve this. We moved very far when we and Government found points of convergence because we are passionate about the 90 percent plus of our children who were abducted by Kony because Government failed to protect them and Kony has turned them into brutal killer forces.

We have a responsibility and as government, you therefore have a shared responsibility on this matter. If ever you want to do this thing right, please, put some trust in us and consult because some of the things I have just talked about will come back to haunt you people. Thank you very much.

THE SPEAKER: I think you agree that we should spend the rest of our time on this.

5.11
MR REAGAN OKUMU (FDC, Aswa County, Gulu): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I also want to thank the minister for this statement. When we came to the Sixth Parliament, it was almost a taboo to talk about peace talks. Many years down the road, I am happy that today Government is reporting; they are giving a statement to Parliament on the status of peace talks between the Government of the Republic of Uganda and the Lords Resistance Army.

The North has suffered for many years but let me say this: that never again will the North be the same; never again will what has been achieved from the peace process be reversed; never again will the leadership of the North be arrested and caned for speaking on behalf of their people; never again will the leaders of the North be divided when it comes to the question of peace in Northern Uganda. We have developed capacities, we have networked with Members in this House, the people of Uganda and the people across the world, and we are confident that many more people are behind us in and outside the country.

I, therefore, would like to take this opportunity to thank our brothers in Southern Sudan for standing behind us and for accepting to mediate at a time nobody or no government would accept to mediate between a group which has been declared as a terrorist organisation.

We do not support any force of arms; it is a very primitive approach for people to carry arms. For people to carry arms in the modern times to capture power is very primitive indeed. We would not accept leaders with blood in their hands to take over power and rule modern societies today. It is primitive and we do not accept it.

Therefore, the fact that we keep on saying, Please negotiate with LRA, does not mean that we are saying the LRA are angels or that Kony is an angel. We are saying that the Government of Uganda failed in its responsibility to protect the people of Northern Uganda and they were abducted from their hands.

What moral authority would one have to follow and abduct a child whom he failed to protect; to follow and kill that abducted child if there is an opportunity to lure that child to come back alive? (Applause) And that is why many of us have pushed for dialogue; and that is why many of us have stood firm and said over 90 percent of the LRA were abductees. Even those who have now filled the ranks and file of the LRA were abducted from our hands. Where were we when thousands of these children were being abducted and we could not go into war to pursue it immediately to rescue these children? And we can plan and prepare to go and massacre and slaughter them!

Mr Speaker, for many of us who come from the North, we just do not visit places like hon. Amama Mbabazi has visited; we have lived there. We have felt it and we have seen it. We do not want to come here and give stories of atrocities.

I come from Buchoro where the LRA committed a lot of atrocities, where the NRA under the command of Major Ikondere and under the overall command of David Tinyefuza committed extreme atrocities and buried 15 people alive in my own village. But this is not the time to talk. If we want to heal this country, let us not come here to pretend and start portraying ourselves as clean people and that we do not have blood on our hands. We must redeem this country; we have blood on our hands (Interjection)- you do too. This is a fact and the evidence is there.

Our people had started going back home. I said earlier that we in the North, especially the leadership, are convinced that what has been achieved from the peace process and what dialogue has brought will never be reversed and therefore, the peace process that has been achieved in Northern Uganda will never be reversed for a number of reasons. I do not want to go to those reasons but for a number of reasons, they will never be reversed. But we are concerned that even over 90 percent of those LRA in Ri-Kwangba and in Garamba remain abducted people.

There are those children that were born in captivity. When I read the ministers statement on page 3, No. 8, she says, All the attacks were on target. Are you sure you did not attack the monkeys? Are you sure you did not attack abandoned camps? Are you sure you did not just burn huts where there were no people and the LRA had left? (Laughter) Let us be realistic because when you come here and tell us that all the attacks were on target - where is Kony? Has he been wounded? Has he been captured? Where is he because the first target would be Kony? All the attacks were on target.

Honestly speaking, we are not children. We have listened to all these nice statements but as a leader from Northern Uganda, I think it is only important for us to humble ourselves as leaders and re-build the destiny of this county and reconcile this county. Whatever statement you bring to explain what has transpired should be in that spirit that reconciles and unites this country. It should not be in the spirit that will divide this country and it should not be in the spirit that would portray the other part of the country as people who are not interested in peace. Who told you that the people of Northern Uganda are not interested in peace?

I want to conclude, Mr Speaker. We issued a statement by the Acholi Parliamentary Group and we are going to follow up that statement by reaching out to Government to pursue further our views and we hope that Government will listen; the way they listened to us talk peace although it was after a long time. We want the safety of those children who were abducted who have now become fighters, and criminals; we want them to return home safely - if there could be any way of rescuing them.

We do not support, for example the conduct of the LRA on the people of DRC and Southern Sudan because in any case without the people of Southern Sudan we would not be where we are today. The people of Northern Uganda would have perished [Ho. Member: So condemn him.] I do not speak from your words, hon. Amama Mbabazi. I think you had your time to speak; give me my time. You represent your constituency and I also represent mine.

So, I would like to conclude by saying that never again will the leaders of Northern Uganda; will the people of Northern Uganda be abused and insulted; be labelled [An Hon. Member: By Kony.] including you (Laughter) never again! This must be loud and clear. If you do not want to listen, time will catch up with you. I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: Okay, let us have hon. Lukwago.

5.21
MR ERIAS LUKWAGO (DP, Kampala Central Division, Kampala): Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is a matter of concern for all of us. We had our views and there was an appeal from Government to the effect that all of us should keep our hands folded that request came from Government and there was a lot of goodwill from all of us about the peace talks.

Otherwise, as my colleagues has just said, Parliament aught to have debated this matter much earlier, but we agreed to wait. I remember even on several talk shows we usually brought out a lot of legal arguments LRA is listed in the Terrorism Act as one of the gazetted terrorist organisations. So, it would be technically illegal to say that you are talking peace with an outfit that is gazetted as a terrorist organisation. However, we reserved ourselves on all that.

Anyway, it is now saddening to note that Government out of the blue and with all of us waiting to hear the good news from Juba, has launched an attack.

There is one thing I would like to know and I raised it when the Leader of the Opposition was on the Floor. I should get a clarification from the Minister of Security or that of Defence about the reports we got from Juba which indicated that Kony had raised a condition to the effect that if Government still wanted him to append his signature on the peace document, they should lift the warrant.

To talk as a professional, there are two issues the question of peace and justice. These issues have been in the public domain for so many years with people wondering which one should take precedence. Is it about justice or peace? The people of Northern Uganda and Uganda at large and the whole region

THE SPEAKER: Hon. Member, can you assist us on how a warrant can be lifted?

MR LUKWAGO: Mr Speaker, I know as a lawyer that if Kony appeared to sign the peace agreement, the obligation of the Uganda Government under the international law would be to cause his arrest (Interjections) yes, I know that under the international law the moment you sight Kony, you have to arrest him as long as the warrant still stands [An Hon. Member: That is what the warrant means.] And that is what exactly the warrant means. So, the question of lifting it is a matter of urgency. How it would be done, I know the process

THE SPEAKER: Assuming we had that good will, how do we lift it? Who has the responsibility of lifting it?

MR LUKWAGO: Mr Speaker, under the Rome Statute, which we assented to, much as we have not domesticated it here, we are not in the control of the prosecution, but we can move the prosecutor. I do not know whether any Government official has ever attempted to talk to Luis Moreno Ocampo on this issue to tell him that we really need to explore the option of talking peace rather than pursuing justice. The question of justice will come and I am sure it is even captured in the agreement (Interruption)

MR AMAMA MBABAZI: Thank you, Mr Speaker and I would like to thank the hon. Shadow Attorney General, for giving way. The information I have is that I personally have been handling the link and liaison between the Government of Uganda and the International Criminal Court.

I would like to give the following information: One that when a decision was made by the Government of Uganda to go into dialogue for peace with Kony, I did lead a delegation to the Hague and had full discussion and consultations with the ICC.

The debate on whether peace or justice, first, was fully engaged in and we all agreed that as the Government of Uganda was proposing, we should pursue peace first in order to achieve justice. That is why the ICC and the international community as a whole gave its full support to the Juba peace process.

Two, how can the warrant be lifted? Mr Speaker, I would like to inform this House, as I have had the occasion to do before, that the Uganda Government did refer the matter on the criminal actions by Kony and his group to the ICC because Kony lived outside Ugandas jurisdiction.

As you may know, under the Rome Statute, the ICC exercises secondary or complimentary jurisdiction. The primary criminal jurisdiction lies with the state. And the reason why we went to the ICC was because we could not exercise our primary jurisdiction because Kony was outside our territory. Therefore, the ICC took up the matter because we could not exercise that jurisdiction and the Sudan was either unwilling or unable to apprehend Kony.

Just to inform my brother hon. Okumu, I was the first government leader to engage in peace talks in Rome sponsored by the community of St. Egidio in the Vatican. Therefore, we have consistently said and practiced efforts to resolve this issue peacefully.

If Juba had resulted in peace and Kony had willingly, in accordance with the peace agreement, come back into Uganda then the question for lawyers, the question of admissibility would arise; meaning now that Kony was back in our control, we could exercise the primary jurisdiction and this is something that we would discuss with the ICC and we undertook to do so. But we cannot do it until Kony is within our jurisdiction because the status of Kony as of the time when we referred the matter to the ICC is the same today. Thank you.

MR LUKWAGO: Thank you, for the information and as I am winding up, Mr Speaker, I think the information given by the minister clearly shows that there is will on the part of Kony to sign as long as the ICC issues are sorted out. And the minister is telling us that they have had meetings with the ICC, they have discussed this issue but there is no clear position taken as of now. And if we are to have peace and if we are to say Kony has run out of all the options and all excuses, we must deal with this issue of the ICC warrant squarely.

Hon. Minister, this is within your powers, either you tell Kony, Please, we are pursuing both justice at The Hague and at the same time peace. And you are bound to fail! We have told you this before that you cannot pursue both options concurrently. We have got to drop one option -

THE SPEAKER: But hon. Lukwago, suppose you lift the warrant, assuming you succeed, and he says, Well, the warrant has gone but I am not coming. Will you go back? Assuming the warrant has been lifted and you declare it on BBC, Voice of America and then he says, Right, but I am not coming.

MR LUKWAGO: Mr Speaker, this is all we are saying. If Kony is using it as an excuse, let us try it. If Kony again does not come out to sign after the warrant has been lifted, that is a different matter. But we should not be speculative and we should not be vindictive at this stage to say that Kony might not sign.

Finally on that issue, we have established a division here in the High Court. Whether the warrant is lifted and the case is withdrawn from the ICC, and you are saying we cannot reinstate it, because there is that possibility of saying ICC will not want to be used as a handkerchief I heard statements before made by -(Interruption)

MR RUHINDI: Mr Speaker, when we talk about the signing of the comprehensive peace agreement, we should not be oblivious that there have been other benchmarking agreements that have been signed; agreements on accountability and reconciliation and so on. Actually what is remaining is just putting together the entire package and it is just symbolic. But even as I speak, even those benchmarking agreements that have been already concluded can be enforced and in those agreements, Kony and his team actually agree to submit to the jurisdiction of Uganda. That means that if, for instance, they came out and signed a comprehensive peace agreement, then we would be in a better position to talk to the ICC and say, Look, since these people have accepted to come and submit to the jurisdiction of Uganda - and since we actually look at ICC playing a catalyst role, a complementary role, then they could be able to look at the issue of the warrants already issued. So, what is the problem?

MR LUKWAGO: Thank you, for the information Attorney-General. I would suggest that since you said there are those other agreements that have been signed and the Minister for Security told us one of the agreements expired, that is the cessation of hostilities agreement, I would suggest we extend that cessation of hostilities agreement and explore more options of sorting out these legalese to do with justice in ICC or domestically here.

Since Kony has demonstrated that he is ready to appear before any judge here, and answer for whatever crimes (Interjections)- that is what the Attorney-General has said. Kony has agreed to submit to the jurisdiction here, if that information is anything to go by - unless you are saying the minister has told lies. No but if he has assured us that he is ready to appear before our local courts here, then let us extend the cessation of hostilities agreement and we give peace priority and then explore those avenues further.

This is made on the premise of the submission made by the Leader of Opposition, the shadow minister of defence here and all these concerns being raised about the consequences of this new attack and the ramifications concerned.

Finally, the question of legality; honestly speaking, let us not hide under the provisions of Article 210. This is not hot pursuit; this is not a peace making mission. This is deployment outside Uganda which required approval of Parliament and the issue of the President informing Parliament after deployment, that one is only permitted during recess and we are not on recess. So, let us comply with all the requirements under the law and also give peace a chance by signing or extending the cessation of hostilities agreement. I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: Now we start with Obongi and then go to my constituency, Lubaga North and then Gulu. Let us see how we proceed. Maama, I will come to you after that. But let us be as brief as possible so that many people can make their contributions.

5.38
MR HASSAN FUNGAROO (FDC, Obongi County, Moyo): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. In the first place I thank you for giving me this opportunity and I thank God for offering us this opportunity to look into this matter. I do not support the ongoing military operations. I condemn them!

I would like to take you to another angle. The ICC serves to discipline the LRA for fighting wrongly because it says, You fought wrongly; you committed atrocities; you deserve to be punished for fighting wrongly. And the ICC deals with individuals not the whole of LRA. Now, you just think about this. If the LRA says, You, Kony and so and so go to the court; go to the prison but for us we are continuing with the war. Will that bring peace in Northern Uganda? Did you have that angle of seeing things logically? (Laughter) What we are saying here is that we do not care whether LRA or whether Kony is imprisoned or whether he dies or not. We are about the end of the war.

We have members of former rebel forces from the Democratic Republic of Congo at least one now in the hands of the ICC. Has that one stopped war in the Congo? What is the difference between Nkunda, a rebel general, and a general who is in the ICC now? Do you want to create a situation like this where Kony goes to the ICC or is imprisoned in Uganda or he is hanged and the LRA find another general to lead them in war? This is possible! I am thinking as a philosopher analysing things for you to see easily.

The interest is not to deal with individuals but to deal with the whole situation holistically in order to stop the war. Gen. Joseph Kony was not the one who started this war here. You heard of Alice Lakwena; where is she? Dead but isnt the war still there in the North? You heard of Angelo Okello; where is he? Dead but isnt there war in the Northern Uganda now? When we tell you here kindly that look at the root causes of the war, you think that we are foolish; we support the war.

The only thing, therefore, that I am appealing for here is, let us look at the causes of discomfort in the population from which the abductors rise and the abducted rise also to fight. There is nobody in this House who does not have the capacity to get angry if sufficiently offended. Who is that person who cannot get angry if sufficiently offended here? It is not there with you, even the Minister of Defence.

Therefore, we are the ones speaking that take this angle of peaceful negotiations and when you say something, honour your words. There is a developing understanding in the population of Northern Uganda that most of the agreements signed between the leaders of this Government of NRM and rebel groups in the North are aimed at only and only at disabling the fighting capacity of the rebels. By disarming them (Interruption)

MR ANGIRO: Thank you, Mr Speaker and my colleague for giving way. The information I would like to give my honourable colleague is that, Uganda has made a very serious mistake by going to war with Kony because we are now going to cause Kony to be a field marshal. Field Marshal in fighting UN; fighting three countries and even the Whites in America -(Laughter) the line we had taken was the best; a peace option because at the moment there is what we know as war economy. In war economy, there is no one frontline. There are so many frontlines and the stakeholders are many. Even at the UN there are high profile people who are benefiting from this war economy. And then the military hardware suppliers; do we know where they are coming from? Why has Kony been very strong?

And when you read this statement, all the attacks were on target. Can I now assume that Kony is dead? Those abducted women and children are dead or alive? And then you continue to say, UPDF shall, however, give details later. The operation is continuing. Will he not continue looting the gold in the Congo again? Will he not continue looting timber in Congo again? Are we sure our children who have been desiring to come back alive are alive? What kind of abuse can we now take after consulting the people of Northern Uganda and we resolved that let Kony come back; let us talk peace. And you start war without consulting us.

Kony is clever. During the last peace talks, who did know that at the time people were going to Juba for peace talks there were again military men, military hardware moving towards that direction. For what purpose were we doing this? If they were really serious peace talks, why did we do that? Kony is very intelligent. Thank you very much.

MR FUNGAROO: Thank you very much comrade for this information. I pick it from that point that as people were going for peace talks; our UPDF was also going for war in Sudan. But now you think about this, is Kony a human being with a brain to think -(Interruption)

MR OCHIENG: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, I returned from Gulu in the evening. But to my dismay when I was in Gulu, I learnt that UPDF Battalion 105 which comprised mainly of former LRA rebels was the first to be sent to Garamba and then other groups were sorted from eastern Uganda and Northern Uganda. That means those people who are going to die there are composed mainly of the northerners of both the LRA and the UPDF. Thank you.

MR FUNGAROO: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker (Interruption) order to who now?

MS NANKABIRWA: Mr Speaker, I gave my statement and sat and listened attentively to colleagues and I know that I have the chance to respond. But when my brother stood up and misinformed this House without substantiating namely that there is a 105 Battalion comprised of only LRA former combatants and that these are the ones that have been sent to Garamba, I felt I should raise a point of order on him because it is not true. I know for the fact that it is not true. From the commander Kankiriho and the others I know for a fact that what he is saying is not true. Is he, therefore, in order to allege seriously without giving substation?

THE SPEAKER: Well, you are challenged. Now can you substantiate-justify the statement.

MR OCHIENG: Thank you, Mr Speaker. 105 Battalion was an assortment of former LRA combatants who were trained at Logore training ground in Gulu in Palal sub-county. The passing out of that battalion was officiated by the head of state himself in Kaunda Grounds. I was there as the area Member of Parliament and so many people.

THE SPEAKER: Now, can you tell us the names of these people?

MR OCHIENG: The minister knows all those details; the names and everything.

THE SPEAKER: No, what you can say is, Somebody told me, and then we shall know what to do. Can you tell us the names and the villages from which they came from?

MR OCHIENG: I can bring the names and all that because they are very many. But it should be known that it is a fact.

THE SPEAKER: If you cannot justify you say, Maybe the information I got is wrong. But are you in position to give the details?

MR OCHIENG: It is very clear that the composition and everything is like that and give me time I will produce the list of the former abductees.

THE SPEAKER: You see what you can do is to withdraw meanwhile you are getting the information. I am controlling his position.

MR OCHIENG: Mr Speaker, what I am saying is the truth.

THE SPEAKER: I am controlling his position. I am asking you: can you give me ten names?

MR OCHIENG: I can produce the names later on, not now because I have to produce the whole list.

THE SPEAKER: Why dont you for the time being withdraw and when you get the names you bring them?

PROF. LATIGO: Mr Speaker, when hon. Penytoo rose, he rose on a point of information. And in making his point of information he said that when he came back from Gulu yesterday and he got information that that particular battalion was deployed. If the information is wrong he cannot just be out of order for reporting the information he got. He cannot be.

THE SPEAKER: No, that is what you see if you have not verified the information with this kind of statement, well say I got the information but give me time in the meanwhile I withdraw when I get the details I will bring them. That is all; that is how we behave where you are lacking the details.

MR OCHIENG: Mr Speaker, if I am forced to withdraw then I withdraw but what I am saying is the truth.

THE SPEAKER: You do not have the details. This is not a village meeting. You dont we are not blaming you. Maybe somebody misled you. While we are looking for the information, you withdraw and then when you get it you bring it to us, please.

MR OCHIENG: I said that if the House forces me to withdraw, I will tactically withdraw but what I am saying is the truth and nothing but the truth.

THE SPEAKER: You are out of order then.

MR FUNGAROO: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. But comrade Penytoo you rest, you know these things. (Laughter) My appeal here is (Laughter)- my appeal to the Parliament of this republic here is you also see that we are learning from you. For those who claim that the people of Northern Uganda cannot think properly; we are learning only.

THE SPEAKER: I think do not bring in the fact of Northern Uganda. Let us talk.

MR FUNGAROO: I mean we leaders who advocate for peace instead of war maybe according to the judgment of the Minister of Defence not thinking correctly because the situation according to her judgment warrants war. That is why the incorrect thinking come in; those of us who think incorrectly. I am not talking about everybody from the North because some of you think correctly and support that war to be there. I would like to say that you people of Northern Uganda if you have the capacity to fight why do you fight and destroy yourselves? (Applause) If it is necessary why dont you fight to defend yourselves? (Laughter) I rest my case. Thank you, Mr Speaker. (Laughter)

THE SPEAKER: After I have given the ones here, I will get about three and we finish.

5.52
MS BETI KAMYA (FDC, Lubaga Division North, Kampala): Thank you, Mr Speaker and I thank the Minister of State for Defence for her statement. As usual, the statement from government seems to have been given minimal attention by government. Because the minister gave us one side of the story but did not care to give us the other side of the story. And the minister gave us half of the story and other government ministers had to stand up and take even more time than she took to give us the second part of the story. To me the minister did not put enough attention and diligence to this statement. (Applause)

The ministers statement should have also included Konys side of the story however outrageous it might be. That would have been a more wholesome statement to this House. We have heard that Kony has a possession; we have heard that Kony has conditions; we have also heard that from the Minster of Security that it is not possible at this particular time for government to comply with Konys conditions because they are outside the jurisdiction of this government, being with the ICC. But I know that where there is a will, there is a way. Wherever there is a will, there is a way and it has been demonstrated many times in this country. In 1993, when the President felt that the restoration of the Buganda Kingdom was so important and it could not wait for the promulgation of the Constitution, a way was found and it was done outside this House.

THE SPEAKER: For your information, it was done in this House. There was a law adjusting the Constitution to allow the coronation of His Majesty. So, it was done in this House.

MS KAMYA: I thank you for your guidance, Mr Speaker, but the point I am trying to make is that it was contentious at that time as we were waiting for the Constitution, but a way was found.

The pulling backward and forward between government and Kony reminds me of the story of the wise King Solomon and the women that were fighting over a baby. At the end of the story, which I am sure everybody in this House is familiar with, the mother of the baby paid the ultimate price to keep the baby alive. What is in question now is who the mother of the children of Northern Uganda is because each of the evil women is saying cut up the baby. Surely, it is the responsibility of this government to be the mother of the baby, to love the baby more than Kony and to say the baby must live. For that matter, it is the responsibility of this government to bend over backwards to make sure that the peace process continues and that we pay whatever price - even going on our knees before the ICC - in doing whatever it takes to ensure that the baby survives. It is very sad that this baby does not seem to have a mother. Everybody is saying cut it up.

The government statement says at the conclusion, I assure Ugandans that prevailing peace in Northern Uganda will not be disturbed. To me this assumes that in the understanding or interpretation of the NRM Government, peace is only the absence of gun fire. Does a mother who is not sure about tomorrow talk about peace because Kony is kept at bay? Can anybody who is not sure whether, like my brother said, Kony died in the targeted attacks have peace? Does a whole generation of children of Acholi who have never known peace or practised a culture or been educated talk about peace? Does the patient in Kayunga Hospital whom they showed us yesterday - because the money could go to the hospital but it has to go to the war.

We had been assured that because the war is going to end, we are going to have our resources taken to where they should be in the hospitals. I cannot sleep; I have all these images of a hospital like Kayunga but we all agree that the war has to be facilitated. Just last week, I saw the President on TV and he was saying that now that the war is over, the resources of this country are going to be channelled to where they are supposed to be - in the hospitals, in the schools and on the roads. Now that there is a war, it does not take a soothsayer to tell that we shall need to find resources in this budget year, which we passed. We must find resources somewhere; we must divert them somewhere to support the war.

I want to ask: what does it take for this country to address the issues that have been raised by Kony, the issues that are now at or must be at the heart of the matter that must end this war? What does it take to be the mother of the children of Acholi? In my opinion, I am begging this government to love the people of this country a little more and end this war, and do whatever it takes even if it means getting down on our knees instead of issuing threats which we have issued for 20 years now, and which we are issuing again because we do not know how long it will take. Can we talk to the ICC? Can we do whatever it takes to end this war? I thank you.

6.01
MS BETTY AOL (FDC, Woman Representative, Gulu): Thank you, Mr Speaker. This morning, I happened to meet Betty Akidi, the sister of Joseph Kony, and I talked to her and she told me that Kony wanted her to come with some of the children. She went together with those who went to Garamba on the 27th and she came back. I think she had a very close interaction with the brother. The brother wanted her to come with the children but she only turned that down because she does not have the means and ways of keeping the children.

Someone called me when I was in Gulu asking whether I could find the whereabouts of Konys children who are in Gulu and get to know about their welfare. Is there anybody who can really volunteer to take charge of their welfare to ensure that they are okay? Some of Konys children are there in Gulu. I told the person that I was already on my way to Kampala as I came back to Kampala yesterday evening.

The people of the North are greatly traumatised. What we have chosen to do now is can we say we moved from frying pan to fire? The trauma has continued even without gunshots returning to the North. I think people had a lot of confidence in the peace talks. What does it take to pursue a peaceful option other than a military one? The military option was pursued for over 20 years. Our people were in camps; roadblocks were the order of the day; there was no freedom and abduction of our children was a common thing; nothing good was realised. But with the pursuance of the peace talks for the last two years, people have been getting to settle properly. We now only have to work on their psycho-socio support to help them forget the past. That is why we have mental health units in very many parts of the country full of people from the Northern part of Uganda including the one in Gulu.

Mr Speaker, I would like to condemn the action of government in the strongest order. I also would like to say that when we talk about peace talks or dialogue and negotiations, it means that if you are very tall, you should let your size go down a bit. And if you are very short, you should be helped to rise up a bit so that both of you are at par while negotiating. The negotiations in Juba have been there for quite long. For example, I was in Garamba just in April and May. I have been exposed to peace talks (Interruption)

MR TOSKIN: Thank you very much, honourable colleague, for giving me this opportunity. I am just seeking some clarification from you. I quite appreciate what the honourable member is talking about especially her concerns on the suffering of the people of the North and the need for the peace talks to continue.

However, I just want to find out from the Member whether she is aware that while government pursued peace talks in Juba, Kony was busy abducting people in the Congo, Sudan and Central African Republic? What is her position on that? Should we simply leave that to continue until Kony decides to stop it by himself?

MS AOL: Thank you, honourable colleague, for that information. But I told you that I was in Garamba where I met the abducted children. I saw the babies that have been born there. I also met the combatants who were abducted and as a mother, I would like to say that if Konys whereabouts are known as it was said, what does it take to just go and pick him other than killing all those abducted children and the other people?

Anyway, let me continue with my point. I would like to say that it is not good to pretend. My colleague, hon. Penytoo, has been shut down on grounds that he did not have any concrete information about

THE SPEAKER: No, hon. Member, you are out of order. He was not shut down; he was only told to substantiate and that is the procedure. If you make such a statement, you must either justify it and if you do not, you must then withdraw it. That is the procedure.

MS AOL: Mr Speaker, I just want to bring up an issue on government preparations to attack the rebel camps. Some people kept telling us that there were soldiers being ferried towards the West Nile region. But I dismissed that information insisting that since Kony is out of Uganda, the soldiers were being ferried to protect our border since it is the responsibility of the Uganda Government to protect our border to ensure that Kony does not come back. However, yesterday I confirmed what people were saying. It had been hearsay to me, but I confirmed it when reports about the attack on the rebel camps came out.

As a mother, I feel that even if we pursued the peace talks for five years, it is better than going in for a military option. During the Munyonyo Declaration, I said that I was not happy about the deadlines to the peace talks. Deadlines in peace talks do not help. Peace talks are not as easy as we think. Maybe you can give a timeframe to a military option, but not peace talks because the situation keeps changing. I am not supporting the abductions by Joseph Kony, but how come he abducted our children yet it was the responsibility of government to protect those children? Why are we always deceived that we have enough soldiers on the frontline yet at the end of it all our people get abducted? Now you have decided to go and kill the abductees; but remember you will always be with that blood on your hands. Even your children and grand children will carry that blood.

Peace talks have got a lot of challenges. I told you that I was trained in peace building in 1990 by Panos, London. From that time we kept on pursuing the peaceful option though every time we talked about peace talks we were labelled bandits. Whenever government issued threatening statements, Kony would strike killing people seriously.

You should remember that we pay our taxes to government and not Kony. So we expect the government to protect us. When we talk like this, some people say that we are rebel collaborators. If I were a rebel collaborator, I would have gone to the bush long time ago, but I could not do that because I am not and believed in a peaceful option. This is the best approach though very many people rejoiced over the attack of Sunday yet many of you have never met those children. If you had the chance to meet them, you would be weeping. Why dont you just go and pick Kony? (Laughter) I am not happy also with a lot of lies

THE SPEAKER: You mean you pick him as you pick grasshoppers? (Laughter)

MS AOL: Mr Speaker, my Minister of State for Defence is a woman. I wish she also visited that part of Garamba. Well, if she visited maybe she did not meet those rebels. But I sometimes feel very sad with statements which are made by government officials, those who hold high positions, they issue threats. We are going to kill you, if you do not do this on a negotiation table. If you are negotiating, you do not use those words which are not peace building. I feel that all those who are in the government peace team should have gone for training in peace building. This military option is just to stop it but then you need to get something which is sustainable. Peaceful option is more sustainable than military option. I thank you.

THE SPEAKER: I think we are going to listen just to three people and really conclude.

6.13
THE MINISTER OF LANDS, HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT (Mr Omara Atubo): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. We are here to talk about peace and we are here to talk about war and condemn it. I want to thank you because the normal situation of ministerial statement could have taken hardly 30 minutes, but because we are talking about life, we are talking about the fundamentals of human survival, you have found it and deemed it fit for us to have an extended debate on this matter.

As a representative of the people of Otuke in Northern Uganda, I want to speak from a position of witnessing the position of experience of what it means to be in a state of war for 20 years; to be displaced and for your wealth in terms of cattle to be raided and finished completely. There is a total demand, from the people of the North and Otuke in particular for which I am mandated to speak, not only for peace but for permanent peace. And when we talk of permanent peace, we are not only talking of qualified peace like relative peace, peace for the last two or three years, the people want that peace in which they, their children and their unborn ones will live for ever and never experience what they have experienced in the last 20 years.

The issue before us is how do we achieve permanent peace after all these years of suffering in the North? As I said, there is some relative peace now, even my people of Otuke are no longer in the camp but they have been having their ears on the ground on Juba peace talks and it affects them. Every time they know there is no signature and Kony is there, they have one leg at home and one leg ready for running.

I know we are all interested in achieving peace through peaceful means, but let us be a little bit historical. 20 years on a state of war and a few years of relative peace. Let me ask myself, how have we reached this state of relative peace in Otuke and possibly in other areas which I do not represent? When Kony overrun Otuke and went into Teso, there was no peace negotiation with Kony. For the first time even the people of Lango who were opposed to holding guns mobilised their children in the form of Amuka Boys and took up arms to defend themselves and to fight Kony. I know what took place in Teso, but because of limited time I will not talk about the Arrow Boys.

There was no talk with Kony on that matter and everybody in Lango for the first time even myself who was opposed to lifting a spear or a gun against this and saying it is the responsibility of the government to defend our properties, we all volunteered and joined Amuka Boys and we managed to mobilize up to 20,000 Amuka Boys and through this with Arrow Boys in Teso we managed to push Kony out of Teso and Lango. The pressure continued I believe and eventually Kony was pushed out of Uganda not through negotiations.

I am saying this with a heavy heart because I am one of those in this Parliament in 1996 who wrote a minority report with hon. Mao against everybody because there was an ad hoc committee appointed in this Parliament to investigate the cause of war in the North (Interjections)- please, read that report. The cause of war in the North, hon. Fungaroo, I refer you, I do not know whether you have analysed that report. It deals in detail with the cause of the war in the North; political, historical, sociological, educational, economic, everything is in that report and we advised government to have a holistic approach to the solution of the problem on the North.

However, that committee, which was chaired by the late Ali Gabe who unfortunately died recently in a road accident, recommended that we must intensify support for a solution through war, give the army the guns, give the army the money and everything. Mao and I said, No, do not close the door for peace (Interruption)

MR KAKOBA: I want to thank the honourable minister for giving way and I just wanted to supplement what he has been saying that Kony was pushed out of this country not through negotiations but through war. By that time it was Uganda which was doing it. Now that Kony is outside, I think it is high time we did it as a region. And that is why there is this regional arrangement. Because the situation is quite pathetic, he is abducting children from these other countries and he is building an army which is a regional army. What will happen in future if that army becomes big? He will be using people from different countries to fight another country. And you can imagine the mayhem that he can cause.

So it is better we handle him at that level. And in line with that, the leaders of the Great Lakes Region actually signed a pact through which they undertook to handle such situations. Mr Speaker, if you will allow me to quote from this pact.

THE SPEAKER: That is a contribution.

MR KAKOBA: It is a pact on security, stability and development in the Great Lakes Region and it has a number of protocols - there are ten protocols; one of them is a protocol on non- aggression and mutual defence in the Great Lakes Region.

I quote Article 5: The member states undertake to maintain peace and security in accordance with the protocol on non-aggression and mutual defence in the Great Lakes Region and in particular 

(c) To cooperate at all levels with a view to disarming and dismantling existing armed rebel groups and to promote the joint and participatory management of state and human security on their common borders.

And this is exactly what we are doing as the member states of the Great Lakes Region. It is high time we came together to eliminate armed rebellion. That is how we shall have sustainable peace. In fact, my view is that after dealing with Kony, we should even deal with other rebel groups in the region. I thank you.

THE SPEAKER: Yeah, but I have just listened to many of you. I think most of you have been saying, Dont do this to Kony; lift the warrant. But nobody has appealed to Kony to show good will by releasing these children. This is not one-way traffic. Gulu says there were the children and she is not sure whether the children were even bombed. Why dont we during this session appeal to Kony that we are working on the warrant but also release the children other than being one sided?

HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR OMARA ATUBO: Thank you, hon. Onyango Kakoba. And I want to emphasise this point you have brought up that Kony is no longer just a Ugandan issue. In other words, a Uganda Government issue; Kony now has become a regional, an African and international issue. That is why this President Chissano is going to report to the Security Council and that is why the ICC is there. So, when we are dealing with this issue, we should also know that Kony has just become such a serious matter in the region that you may not be able to take a decision purely within your sovereignty and jurisdiction. But also take into consideration the interests of others.

Mr Speaker, in that minority report, we insisted that the government must open its door to peace talks. And at that time in 1996, people like us were looked at in an odd way. How do you talk to a terrorist like Kony; how do you talk to a person that is chopping off peoples buttocks, lips and all this? It was not easy. But slowly the religious leaders came in, the cultural leaders came in, and it was possible now to reach where we have reached in Juba. It did not just start by going to school and study about peace building and so on. We were here practically in the House and even those cultural leaders who have never gone to school were (Interruption)

MR FUNGAROO: Thank you very much. The fact that you my brother, hon. Omara Atubo from Otuke and hon. Mao wrote a minority report suggesting, Dont close the peaceful option; talk peace, and the fact that it is you again who joined the Amuka Boys and fought and through your participation you managed to push the LRA out of Uganda, what is your stand on the current matter where the two issues of war and peace are being weighed? Should we go full time fighting or talking?

MR OMARA ATUBO: It is very simple logic. The fact that you are talking peace does not mean that you remove your uniform; you must switch off your guns. No, the government has a fundamental responsibility to have an army in place and still defend those lives and property. If you say that because you are talking peace you must fold your arms and then allow the other party who has not yet even agreed to talk peace but to have guns and shoot arent you simply (Interjection)- just let me finish.

THE SPEAKER: In fact, I will give only hon. Butime after you.

MR OMARA ATUBO: So this military attack has taken place. Sometimes you are not consulted; the people of Uganda were not consulted but a decision was taken. The question now is: what should we do? One, this is not the first time that the NRM Government has negotiated with various fighting forces in this country and has signed peace agreements. The war in Teso was ended partly through peace agreements; the war in West Nile even those groups which were fighting in Lango by 1989 I partially participated, they came out through this peace negotiation and yet some of them are senior officers in the army now - the Rescue Front and so on.

The government has the track record of these peaceful negotiations. But there must be some degree you cannot negotiate endlessly. And, therefore, the statement is not saying that the door for peace is closed. I dont think so. I think the government is saying, Yes, there is this military attack; the option is there in the region. It is not just the Uganda Government which has done that. Possibly some details may have to be given as to what was the role of the international community on this attack. What did the UN who blessed it, how did it come about and how is it going to end?

So, two things have to be done right now for the people in Otuke and for those who have had this problem and demand permanent peace now that government has chosen this path. The government has no alternative but to ensure that there is success because if you dont succeed, the consequences will be disastrous and I do hope that those who are privy to this approach of the military attack are going to deliver peace using the military attack because if that does not succeed then the consequences will be bad for the people of Otuke and for the people of Uganda.

Many times we have talked about, We the leaders from the North, I am legally a representative of the people of Otuke and so I speak very authoritatively for the people of Otuke. When I stand up and say, We from the North demand this, I would be very hesitant - I welcome the unity of the people of the North but this unity must be based on a common forum. We must have regular meetings; we must have an agreed agenda and how to achieve it. That those who are very good, even when they are abroad, speak for the people of the North and even bring things for the people of the North, but when they reach Entebbe they are very good at taking these things to their villages and the North is brushed aside and nothing now for the North.

But we have an opportunity; let us speak for the North while we have a very formal forum for that. And because the military approach is already there, sometimes when we speak, we may be sending a wrong message to Kony by our utterances and conduct. (Applause)

If, for limited time, I was to repeat what some of our leaders have said outside and inside here, Kony would be very happy to say, Yes, the government does not have support and therefore I am going to be even more stubborn. I must now ensure that I persist in what I am doing. I think that, as national leaders, every word we say must be weighed in such a way that we know the consequences. (Applause) I know that there is nobody in this House who supports Kony. But sometimes, from what you say, Kony will say, Yes, I have some sympathy and therefore let me continue with my bad ways.

Mr Speaker, I end with one simple prayer. The time has come for us for permanent peace; let us be united. I know this sudden attack has provoked a lot of feelings among us but I urge government to reach out to those who have divergent views. I think the government has the will and the capacity to mobilise and I believe that our colleagues who may not agree with the approach should be able to come together in this common pursuit to achieve permanent peace for our people who have suffered for so long. I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: Hon. Butime and that will be the last contribution. Please, speak and then we prepare for tomorrows debate which will be a north-only programme.

6.33
COL (RTD) TOM BUTIME (NRM, Mwenge County North, Kyenjojo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity. I will make just three points. The first point is that in his statement, the minister does not say that the talks and signing of the peace agreement have been cancelled. This means that talks can continue and the signing of the peace agreement can also take place any time. This is really very important.

Number two, when hon. Kakoba Onyango - he has just left - said that he was a scholar, I laughed because I thought he was not one but now I realise that he might actually be a scholar because what he has just quoted on the regional initiative, as far as security of the region is concerned, is a very important quotation. This joint operation between the three armies, that is, the UPDF, that of the Democratic Republic of Congo and that of Southern Sudan in Garamba, is an unheard of development in terms of security for this region. And really this is very important.

I take it that the reason was to rescue children, women, possibly apprehend Kony or flush him out of Garamba and force him to talk or sign. I support that. Although the hon. Member across the Floor was saying that blood will be on your hands and on your children, I think that is a little too condemning and a little unfair because you cannot say that this operation was aimed at killing children, killing women and killing indiscriminately anybody in Garamba during that 14th December operation. I really do not agree with that one.

There was an attack on a statement of the minister. The minister says all the attacks were on target and hon. Okello-Okello laughs. For me as a military officer, that is a very important statement. It means that the operation was not haphazard and that certain camps were pinpointed and those thought to be keeping, housing or where children and women may be located were avoided. That is really what this statement means and I really support this statement.

Finally, I want it to be on record that today Kony knows that he is a fugitive in the DRC, in Southern Sudan and Uganda; that he is a terrorist known by all the three regional states. I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: I think we should close. I think whatever has been said is to give ideas to those responsible to think of how to utilise the ideas expressed here -(Ms Nankabirwa rose_)- do you want to say something?

6.38
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (Ms Ruth Nankabirwa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to thank honourable members for their contributions. I have noted Members concerns; that is why I thought that I should wind up by thanking them. I have summarized my conclusion and therefore I am not going to respond to each individual MP.

One is that the mission is a regional initiative under the signature of the three countries. They sat and agreed and appended their signatures.

Secondly on the plight of children, one of the rules of engagement of the UPDF all along is and has been the security of children. We have testimonies to support my statement. We have children who have been rescued by UPDF. I would have been very grateful and happy if hon. Members especially from that part of the country recognised this. There are children of this country who have been rescued by UPDF and the testimonies are there.

On the other hand, the rules of engagement of LRA are to abduct children, sort out girls and prepare them for wives and use the rest as fighters. Kony does not care about other children; it is only his biological children. And from what my sister Betty quoted as Joseph Konys sister having revealed to her about the children that Joseph Kony was talking about and I got this from Margaret Abalo who was with Joseph Kony and his sister - were his biological children and not these other children from Teso and elsewhere.

And indeed, Joseph Kony surrendered a child of his who was paralysed. He was three years old, paralysed at the back and he could not speak. The mother had been killed sometime back. So Kony surrendered the child and Dr Matsanga called us when we were in Nabang and said, We have a child here; will you be able to travel with it to Juba? I was with Dr Riek in the tent and he consulted hon. Rugunda and all of us said we would go with the child. So when the team came back, they came with the child. When we landed at Juba, the child was surrendered to UNICEF by Margaret Abalo. I am speaking the fact because I was there and I received the information. So that indicates that Joseph Kony only cares about his only biological children but we are talking about the children he has abducted, the children he is using as wives and soldiers. He has never indicated to surrender combatants; his combatants are our children and we want them.

Thirdly, about the UN Special Envoy, President Chissano, going to brief the UN, maybe he is in the progress of briefing the UN but I just want to say that His Excellency Chissano is Joseph Konys spokesperson in the UN, just as hon. Rugunda is Joseph Konys spokesperson in government. Hon. Rugunda pleads for Joseph Kony for extension of the signing date and all that. Unfortunately, Joseph Kony refused to speak to these two people including Dr Riek Machar the mediator. I was with them in the tent and Kony asked and this was from Dr Matsanga because he was communicating with Dr Riek on phone Is President Chissano there? Riek answered in the affirmative. Is Dr Rugunda there? He answered in the affirmative. He refused to talk to them. So, whatever report that Chissano is giving to the UN, it will indicate all that transpired there.

Mr Speaker, there are concerns that government failed to protect its people. This is our responsibility and I will accept the responsibility. In the agreement there is agenda item No.3 which was signed on accountability and reconciliation. I hope that all of us will accept the responsibility. Those of us who encouraged and blessed Joseph Kony at Pabo and told him that Please, go and may your bullets miss no target at all times must also accept responsibility. Those who have been encouraging Joseph Kony to keep on with the fight until their government comes into power should also stand out and accept that responsibility because this complicated the whole issue. The people in the Diaspora who kept on confusing Joseph Kony even in the period of peace talks must also accept responsibility, as I accept the responsibility as government for having failed to protect the people of Northern Uganda. Agenda item No. 3 is very good because it is taking care of that and people are worried; they know that when Joseph Kony comes out, he is going to mention those who have been helping him.

Lastly, on the final peace agreement, I would like to request the Ministry of Internal Affairs or the Prime Minister that copies of the final peace agreement be distributed to the Members of this House so that when we debate, we do so within an informed background. All the agreements that we agreed upon and signed by both teams are here and the last agreement for the two to sign is also here. There is no permanent ceasefire in this agreement. There are agreements on what agenda item No. 2 on issues that were raised; issues concerning education, political issues, Joseph Kony nominating his people, for the President to appoint and so many things. So I request that copies of this important document be availed to, by the Prime Minister, Members of Parliament.

My President was ready to sign when we met him in State House with the stakeholders before we left for Juba because Archbishop Odama asked him, Why dont you sign first, Your Excellency? The President got out his pen and said, Dr Riek, where is the document for me to sign? Dr Riek requested the President that we organise a ceremony in Juba. So the President kept his pen waiting for a ceremony in Juba. Otherwise, he is ready to sign. I want to thank you very much, hon. Okello-Okello. Your spectacles were removed from you and you came back and told us in Nabang. I was there with hon. Akena -(Mr Okello-Okello rose_)

THE SPEAKER: Let us finish.

MR OKELLO-OKELLO: No, the record must be corrected.

THE SPEAKER: But do you accept the statement that your spectacles were removed from you?

MR OKELLO-OKELLO: Mr Speaker, I want to raise a point of order. I never told the honourable minister that my spectacles were removed, and they were never removed. This is the kind of thing that we are talking about.

Secondly, on the child that was brought, I would like to say that I participated in the very first discussions to bring it back. The child does not belong to Joseph Kony; it belongs to an ordinary soldier. So the record must be put correct. We should not mix this issue with lies; it is very dangerous.

THE SPEAKER: Okay, hon. Member. I would like to thank you for your time and ideas on how to solve this problem. We have not been able to touch other issues that were on the Order Paper but as I have said, tomorrow we shall touch most of them. So with this we come to the end of todays business. House is adjourned until tomorrow at 2.30 prompt.