Wednesday, 1 August 2007
 
(Parliament met at 2.43 p.m. in Parliament House, Kampala)
 
PRAYERS
 
(The Deputy Speaker, Ms Rebecca Alitwala Kadaga, in the Chair.)
 
The House was called to order.
 
COMMUNICATION FROM THE CHAIR
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, I welcome you to this afternoons meeting. I would like to alter the Order Paper slightly to allow the Minister of Health to make a statement on an emergency, in which you might be interested. Unfortunately, the copies of the statement are still on the way but if you do not mind you can listen. He will read slowly.
 
MINISTERIAL STATEMENT
 
2.46
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR HEALTH (GENERAL DUTIES) (Dr Richard Nduhuura): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to confirm to this House that we have a confirmed case of Marburg virus disease, who died on the 14 July 2007. The second suspected case has fully recovered. Both cases are gold miners from Kitaka mine located in Kakasi Forest reserve in Kamwenge District.
 
Marburg disease is rare. The occurrence of the confirmed constitutes an epidemic according to the World Health Organization guidelines.
 
Marburg hemorrhagic fever (bleeding) is a rare severe type of disease that causes generalised bleeding in humans. The incubation period is between five to 10 days after contact with an infected person or vector or both. The actual vector is unknown although there is a strong association with monkeys and bats.
 
The symptoms of the disease are sudden onset of high fever, headache, and muscle pain followed by body rash and bleeding tendencies.
 
Since the year 1967, a total of 377 cases have been reported worldwide. In Uganda, 19 cases were reported in Nakibembe village in Busesa, Bugiri District in 1977. The transmission is limited through very close contact with blood and body fluids of affected persons and is low compared to Ebola.
 
The Ministry of Health has taken the following actions to contain the epidemic:
 
"  The ministry has established a national competent multi-disciplinary task force made of national and international experts similar to the one that contained Ebola in 2000.
"  The rapid response teams have been sent to the affected area to contain the situation.
"  The proprietor of the gold mine has been identified and the mine has been closed with immediate effect.
"  All mineworkers have been located and are being monitored.
"  Blood samples are being collected from miners and their contacts and being screened locally and at international collaborating centres including Centres for Disease Control, Atlanta, Georgia, USA.
"  All contacts of the two cases have been traced and are also being screened and contained.
"  The district governments and local councils in the affected area have been directed to ensure that nobody, including gold miners, enter the mine.
"  The Ministry of Health is setting up isolation units in the affected district and at referral hospitals just in case new cases occur.
"  Social mobilization activities have started and education materials are being disseminated. In this regard, I wish to thank The New Vision for the elaborate overview of the Marburg disease on page 3 of todays paper.
 
Madam Speaker, I wish to assure the general public that with our experience in containment of similar outbreaks, the disease will be contained. So far there have been no more new cases for the last 15 days. If we continue to have no more new cases up to 21 days since the last case, a duration equal to two incubation periods, this will then signify the containment of the epidemic.
 
We are working with international partners coordinated by the World Health Organization to control the situation. We appeal to the general public and health workers not to panic but to be vigilant and report any suspected cases to the nearest health unit. The Ministry of Health will continue to update the honourable members and the general public on the progress and new developments.
 
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, honourable minister. Before Members respond, I would like you to join me in welcoming students from Gayaza Primary School, Kyaddondo East. Originally it was called Kadongo Primary School. At that time honourable Sam Njuba their present Member of Parliament was in that primary school. They are up there; they are represented by hon. Njuba and hon. Seninde of Wakiso. You are welcome! (Applause)
 
2.50
DR CHRIS BARYOMUNSI (NRM, Kinkizi County East, Kanungu): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Let me also take the opportunity to thank the Minister of Health and the ministry for the quick response they have shown to contain this problem. I have just a few clarifications or questions to the minister: One, what assurance does the minister give us that the surveillance system in the country is effective such that if such an emergency happens in Kanungu or Koboko, the ministry is able to detect it as fast as possible because some of these illness should be notified to the ministry as soon as possible? How efficient is our surveillance system in this country so that we are able to detect at the earliest the emergency of such illnesses?
 
Secondly, talking of the surveillance system, how is the ministry collaborating with other neighbouring countries so that if such epidemics do arise, for instance, in DRC or Sudan, they are able to know so that the country can prepare?
 
Regarding this specific epidemic, where was the diagnosis made? Was it done clinically in Kamwenge or samples were brought to maybe the Uganda Virus Research Institute laboratory for tests for the ministry to confirm that it is the Marburg fever epidemic? I would like to know where the diagnosis was actually made.
 
Lastly, I just wanted to know what the Ministry of Health is doing to protect the health workers who could have interacted and managed these cases (the one who recovered and this other person who died). I am sure they got exposed and maybe before the diagnosis was made they did not know that this was the kind of disease that they were handling. So, are there any specific measures that the ministry is putting in place to protect the health workers who got in contact with these cases and who may get in contact with other cases that might emerge in the due course? Thank you very much.
 
2.53
MR WILLIAM NSUBUGA (NRM, Buvuma County, Mukono): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I just have a few comments. First, I want to thank the Minister of Health for the statement. The minister has alluded to the fact that The New Vision had elaborately explained this epidemic. But since the ministry was actually on the ground fighting this epidemic, I would have loved if this statement was on the Floor of the House yesterday because this actually implies that if at all The New Vision had not raised it, it would not have been brought on the Floor.
 
When you look at the Order Paper, it is an emergency. Yes, an epidemic is an emergency but I would love the front bench to keep informing the country rather the press. When you read it from the press, you even get scared. People who have business can even fear to go there yet the ministry would have settled the minds of this country much earlier. So, in future it would be good for the ministry to keep updating us rather than the press updating us. I thank you.
 
2.54
COL (RTD.) TOM BUTIME (NRM, Mwenge County North, Kyenjojo): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am a neighbour of Kamwenge and Kyenjojo districts and being a farmer in Kamwenge District, I express solidarity with the people of Kamwenge and I hope that they will go through this very surprising and unfortunate development.
 
Kamwenge is a new district with new health services with a hospital, which is not at a level that is expected with new managers. Unlike the Ebola incident where we had Lacor Hospital which is quite an elaborate and well equipped hospital - but even then we lost one of our distinguished doctors and sons of this country and despite the fact that there is Gulu, a referral Hospital in the North and Lacor hospital, which is a Catholic-funded hospital - Kamwenge is a new district with all the attendant problems of a new area and a new district.
 
Fort Portal regional hospital is about 40-45 kilometres from Kamwenge town council. So, you can imagine the problems which the people of Dura and the people of Kamwenge are facing. And Kamwenge being a rural district and people not being aware of the possible movement of people from Fort Portal to Kamwenge, from Kamwenge to Ibanda and from Ibanda to Mbarara, and the people being rural are not sensitised about the disease, you can imagine the problems which this area and the people around that region and the outlying areas are likely to face.
 
I would like the ministry to assure me that the campaign it is going to carry out to contain this particular epidemic will not be limited to Kamwenge town and a few kilometres from Kamwenge town, Mukunyu Hospital and other areas, but that this will have to spread to areas like Fort Portal, Ibanda, Mbarara and Bushenyi so that there is a ring around that area and that this development does not go beyond the restricted area.
 
I thank you, Madam Speaker, but I express my solidarity with the people of Kamwenge.
 
2.56
MR JOHN ARUMADRI (FDC, Madi-Okolo County, Arua): Madam Speaker, this time round, the Ministry of Health should get a pat on the back for the speed with which they have moved to inform the country and the action they are taking to contain this epidemic. However, I am very sadly reminded of the period of the Meningitis epidemic that we had in the West Nile region, when the ministry dragged its feet.
 
A colleague of the minister, who has just made a statement, came and assured the country that the Meningitis in the West Nile region was under control whereas it was not. There were only very limited doses of the vaccine for health workers and the citizens were left gasping. I would like the ministry to continue with the kind of preparedness that it has started, at least today. Whether this matter happens in Kotido, Kisoro or Koboko for that matter, the same zeal should be seen to be applied because we are one country. I thank you.
 
2.58
MR HASSAN FUNGAROO (FDC, Obongi County, Moyo): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Honourable members, I would like to thank the minister for alerting us and for inviting us - in my opinion this is an invitation to everybody to join the fight against this disease. I am a Member of the Defence and Internal Affairs Committee and along that line, I am so much associated with the military; the Army and the Police. Because of their way of life of living together, they fall among some of the people most at risk. So, I would like to ask the Minister of Health and the Minister of Defence about the special arrangements they have made now to protect the police and the Army in the barracks in Kamwenge and the surrounding areas.
 
Secondly, school children too fall into this group of people who can easily be badly affected. I do not know what measures have been put in place to protect our school children from that end. The point of importance here should be breaking the chain of transmission so that the disease can be contained before it spreads to the whole of Uganda. Diseases know no boundary.
 
For the people of West Nile, if this disease is contained there as rapidly as it started, it will be to our advantage, which means it will not reach those extreme ends of ours like my colleague hon. Arumadri has mentioned. Therefore, I say, continue with this good practice but the bad practice, which was exhibited by the ministry during the time when Meningitis hit the West Nile, should not be repeated. I thank you.
 
3.00
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (Dr Crispus Kiyonga): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Let me start on a point that hon. Fungaroo made asking what we, in the security, are going to do and what measures we have put in place. Only last week, hon. Fungaroo will recall that he and I were at a workshop in Entebbe and I did assert that in the definition of security, you have to go wider than just people dying of spears and guns and that we have to look at diseases, particularly epidemics, which have no defined cure. So, in the forces this is part of our alertness and you recall that when Meningitis broke out recently in Kotido, it was the army that first alerted the country and took the first measures. So, we are always watchful as far as these situations are concerned.
 
Let me also thank my colleagues in the Ministry of Health. Although it is unfortunate that we have got this epidemic, the speed with which they have reacted does indicate that they are on the ground and that the system for disease detection is working in the country. So, we thank them and we should continue to support them. In fact, Madam Speaker, this raises the question - sometimes, like in the past few weeks we lost some of our colleagues and colleagues are always wondering, what is happening in Mulago and say that we should invest more in Mulago. As a country, we must always make choices; we either invest heavily in Mulago or invest in other measures that can give us higher capacity to detect diseases like this.
 
Having said that, Madam Speaker, I would like to request the Ministry of Health to avail, the materials that the honourable minister has talked about that will alert the population as part of mobilisation, to the Members of Parliament as part of that mobilisation. The fact that this particular case has been found in Kamwenge does not mean that the disease is only in Kamwenge; it also does not mean that the disease may not spread to other parts of the country. When we had Ebola in the North in 2000, the other district that was affected was deep in Masindi. So, the disease could easily move to other parts of the country and so the more people we involve in the mobilisation, the better for our country.
 
Hon. Butime has made a comment about the health facilities and their competence to handle a situation like this. Now that the Ministry of Health knows, we do not really need a referral hospital to deal with a situation like this. What we need is support and mobilisation and in this respect I do hope that the honourable minister, apart from coming to us, will actually proceed to the ground in Kamwenge and participate in the mobilisation of the population. I thank you, Madam Speaker.
 
3.03
MS BETTY AOL (FDC, Woman Representative, Gulu): Madam Speaker, I want to say that when I read about the outbreak of this disease in the newspaper, I got very scared. It actually concerns the nation as a whole. If it is exactly like Ebola, it is so deadly. I was secretary of health in Gulu District when Ebola broke out. It was not very easy to fight it. We need to put all our heads together and fight this disease. Today we hear that it is in Kamwenge, tomorrow it may jump somewhere else.
 
I want to allay the fear of hon. Butime that at least if it is exactly like Ebola, we already have the experience and I am sure it is the same structure which was used to fight Ebola which can be used to also fight this disease. With Ebola, by the time we got to know it, it had already spread wide and that was why the number of deaths was so high. All of us must join hands in this fight. Mobilisation will help, but sometimes our people, especially at the grassroots level, are not very much aware. So, that awareness has to be expedited so that the death may remain at two. The protection is what is most important. All of us will join hands in the mobilisation. I thank you.
 
3.05
MR ALEX NDEEZI (NRM, People With Disabilities, Central): Thank you, Madam Speaker. This statement is a clear reflection of the high level of responsibility and accountability, and I earnestly shall -(Interruption)- Madam Speaker, I beg to draw the attention of this august House to an issue very specific to my constituency. This statement brings back to mind sad memories of the Ebola epidemic. I would like to inform this august House that at the time we had the Ebola epidemic, more than 100 persons died in the districts of Gulu and Lira. When we tried to undertake some comparison with the general population, we discovered that the death rate was two times higher than for ordinary people.
 
It is quite clear that for any fight against an epidemic of this nature, people must have access to information. Therefore, for this specific category of people that I am talking about, there is a serious problem relating to access to information. If people cannot access information, there is no way they can fight an epidemic of this nature. Now, those were memories of the epidemic, but now we have a new epidemic coming up. Honourable minister, may you please tell me what measures you have in place this time to save this significant minority within our society? Thank you, Madam Speaker.
 
3.07
MS ROSE MUNYIRA (NRM, Woman Representative, Busia): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I would also like to add my voice to that of my colleagues to commend the Ministry of Health for the fast move that they made, that is, running to the field and then coming to inform us. Although some Members have complained that the press informed us faster than the Ministry of Health, we are aware that they took off very fast to go to the field.
 
My concern is with the way the honourable minister said that they have already relocated the miners. I would like the honourable minister to let us know further where these miners have been relocated to. Is it not dangerous to the community if at all they have been relocated to some other places where there are people who may be at risk of maybe getting the infection? That is the clarification I wanted to seek from the minister.
 
3.08
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR HEALTH (GENERAL DUTIES) (Dr Richard Nduhuura): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to thank colleagues for raising those concerns and for crediting the Ministry of Health for the move that we have taken very quickly to intervene.
 
Madam Speaker and honourable members, it is not true that we are responding to what appeared in The New Vision of today. If you read The New Vision, the main headline was attributed to the Director General of Health Services in the Ministry of Health, and we got confirmation - because the confirmatory test was done in Atlanta, Georgia, USA - yesterday evening and immediately the Director General got in touch with The New Vision to give them the information. I am now here informing Parliament and after here, I am going to address the press and give them similar information.
 
Hon. Baryomunsi wanted to know how effective and efficient the surveillance system is. The surveillance system in the Ministry of Health is already tested because it has the experience of dealing with Ebola. So, we have no doubt that the surveillance system is tested, experienced and we will be able to handle the job.
 
How are we collaborating with neighbouring countries? As I pointed out in my statement, Madam Speaker and honourable members, we are working with the World Health Organisation and the World Health Organisation is going to send an international alert and so the neighbouring countries are going to be informed well in time.
 
Where was the diagnosis done? Initially the diagnosis was done at UVRI, then in Nairobi but later samples were sent to CDC in USA, Atlanta, Georgia, where the confirmatory tests were done and we received the information, as I have already informed you Members, yesterday evening.
 
Now hon. Nsubuga I think I have already answered you because you thought we were responding to what appeared in The New Vision.
 
Hon. Butime, yes we are not leaving anything to chance. As you heard from my statement, we have already sent rapid response teams to the area and we are very sure that they are going to contain the situation.
 
Where are the miners? Good enough the miners -(Interjection)
 
MR KATURAMU: I thank you, Madam Speaker and I thank the minister, for giving way. I wish to commend the efforts the minister and his team are making to contain the spread of this disease. I heard that consultations are being made with international research centres and that one of them is in Atlanta, USA. However, before we even consult our neighbours who may not even be affected by this disease, I have been in this town called Marburg in Germany. I wanted to know the historical linkage between this disease and Marburg because I believe that if the outbreak was in Germany in this town, I think these would be some of the important areas that we could collaborate with in this matter. So I wanted to know, honourable minister, whether there are efforts to do that.
 
DR NDUHUURA: Thank you very much, hon. Katuramu. I think that is a detail that appears on page 3 of The New Vision of today but if you would like to know more, Marburg is a city in Germany. That is where the virus was first isolated in a monkey that had been imported from Uganda in 1967.
 
Hon. Arumadri was concerned that the outbreak of Meningitis was not properly handled. But we at the Ministry of Health are very satisfied that with the limited resources we had at that time, that is the best we could do. The vaccination was delayed and the red tape in procurement also brought a problem. However, in the long run, the ministry managed to resolve this and control the situation.
 
Hon. Fungaroo, what are we doing to protect the army, the police and the school children? The rapid response team we have sent is there to do exactly that, which is to make sure that the disease is contained where it has broken out and that it does not spread to the neighbouring areas, districts or to the whole country.
 
I would like to thank my senior colleague hon. Kiyonga for the information he gave and I would like to assure the House that the Ministry of Health is going to avail the IEC materials to Members of Parliament and the minister will proceed to Kamwenge to be on the ground and carry out political mobilisation.
 
Hon. Ocan Aol was scared. You see, it was mentioned that this disease is like Ebola but it is not actually as virulent and as difficult to contain as Ebola. Marburg disease is less virulent and easier to contain. You were also calling for awareness. I think this is exactly what we want to do and we want to request Members of Parliament to join hands in carrying out mobilisation work.
 
Hon. Munyira, about the miners and where they are located, they are in Kamwenge.
 
Hon. Ndeezi, I think you were thanking me for giving you information; we shall continue to do this. As to what measures we have taken, I think we have been elaborate enough in our statement and copies have now been circulated. I thank you, Madam Speaker.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable minister, I thought hon. Ndeezi was concerned about access to information by his constituents. They are deaf. I think that is what he was asking for.
 
DR NDUHUURA: Madam Speaker, I think that is a very pertinent question and I will contact the disability section in my ministry straight away to ensure that we also access that constituency.
 
MRS BABA DIRI: I thank you very much, Madam Speaker. The information I would like to give the minister is that, he should contact the National Association of the Deaf to provide information like where to get interpreters so that the deaf people can access this information. He should also remember the blind who are not catered for as well as the physically handicapped down there. The message must reach them. That is what we would like to see. Thank you.
 
MR NDUHUURA: That was just information. The IEC materials we are talking about cut across and will cater for all categories of people, including the constituency of hon. Ndeezi.
 
MOTION THAT THANKS OF PARLIAMENT BE RECORDED FOR THE CLEAR AND PRECISE EXPOSITION OF GOVERNMENT POLICY CONTAINED IN THE ADDRESS DELIVERED TO PARLIAMENT ON THE STATE OF THE NATION BY H.E THE PRESIDENT ON 7 JUNE 2007
 
3.18
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (Dr Crispus Kiyonga): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Honourable colleagues, I have prepared for my use some notes as I make my response and I hope that with the permission of the Speaker, I will be allowed to make references to the notes as and when it becomes necessary. (Laughter)
 
One of the key subjects discussed in the State of the Nation Address was the review of one-years multiparty politics. In my view, for multiparty politics to be sustainable, the principle of the common good must be upheld. This means that there must be matters of national interest that both sides of the political divide must uphold and work for. In this light, therefore, I want to observe that hon. Prof. Ogenga Latigo, the Leader of the Opposition and hon. Prof. Anokbonggo to some extent gave credit where it was due in discussing the Presidents address on the state of the nation. This is how it should be if we are going to convince the people we represent that both multi-party politics and Movement politics can be in the interest of this country.
 
Again, if I would repeat, this means that if one is on the opposition, it does not mean that whatever is said on the government side must be opposed. Likewise, it also means that we on the government side, when we listen to the opposition, it cannot be that everything they say is wrong. There must be areas that we agree on in the interest of our country.
 
Let me perhaps put some light on why I have specifically mentioned Prof. Anokbonggo and Prof. Latigo. I watched my former teacher, Prof. Anokbonggo, in his contribution and he came out and said, When I heard the President saying that he is going to have zero tolerance to corruption, I was extremely happy. I have paraphrased what the professor said. This is the spirit; we must give credit where it is due. We must give support if the fight is going in the right direction.
 
And for Prof. Latigo, who really had an extensive response, I will just make reference to one or two instances. Prof. Latigo did say that as far as security in the North and security in Karamoja is concerned, he completely agreed with the government that a lot of progress had been made. Again, this is in the same direction as Prof. Anokbonggo of giving credit where it is due.
 
Prof. Latigo went further, on page 4 of his statement - and I will just read two lines. This was in respect to the NALIK (National Leadership Institute of Kyankwanzi). He said, The opposition of course welcomes consultation on restructuring the institute to make it relevant to the new reality in our country. We are still sorting out within Government, and like the President said, where should it fall? Should it be the Ministry of Defence? Should it be the Ministry of Education or somewhere else? I want to take this opportunity to thank Prof. Latigo for this statement and on the government side, we shall follow this up so that we get full consultation and maybe one of these days we shall see colleagues of the opposition in Kyankwanzi undertaking some study. (Applause)
 
If I can go back to my subject of the common good, it does not matter how much money we have, or what beautiful ideas we have on paper to develop our country. Unless peace prevails, unless stability prevails, we just cannot move an inch. Therefore, on matters of security, let us be unidirectional; let us work together; let us ensure that our country remains stable.
 
In discussing the situation in the North, some colleagues, including to some extent Prof. Latigo, may have created the impression that the NRM Government does not believe in peaceful methods of conflict resolution. This is far from the truth honourable members. If you trace the history of conflicts in this country, particularly since 1986, in many if not most of the situations, Government has always first taken the option of peace talks, of trying to look out for those causing problems so that we can have a discussion. This is a principle within the NRM. It was for that reason, just to give a few examples, that we had discussions with Gen. Bamuze, and it is for that reason that eventually the amnesty law was put in place.
 
In the case of Kony, there have been many attempts to try and talk peace. Again if I may remind colleagues in the House; as far back as 1994, the Minister for Northern Uganda then, hon. Betty Bigombe, did physically meet Kony in some bush within Uganda. Subsequent to that in 2004, hon. Ruhakana Rugunda and again Mrs Bigombe and other people, did also meet a lead commander of the LRA again in an attempt to ensure that we talk peace and resolve this problem. Over and above these examples I have given, honourable members, the President himself met many leaders in the region whom he believed could be of help in resolving this situation. The leaders who were met in regard to this question within the region included Ghaddafi of Libya, Bashir of Sudan and Arap Moi of Kenya.
 
It is unfortunate, honourable colleagues, that when talks were put in place and indeed the LRA appeared to come forward to participate in these talks, they appeared not to be honest at that time and instead used the calmness, the quiet during these peace talks to build up their capacity and within a short time they would pull out of these talks and start the brutalisation again. It was because of this repeated let down on the part of the LRA that the government appeared to take a firm stand that we think the peace path will not work. When Government was approached through the President by our colleagues and friends in Southern Sudan that we should make further contact we gladly accepted, and as we recall that was the start of the Juba Peace Talks.
  
MS AOL: Thank you, honourable minister, for giving way. Yes, in 1993 to 1994, there was that Bigombe peace accord. I would like to inform the honourable minister that the breakdown of that peace accord was not by one side only, it was because of an ultimatum and that ultimatum came from the President and from the government.
 
A lot of attempts for peace talks failed because of utterances. That is the more reason why we said that this time round let us build confidence in both the LRA and the government, more especially with the President because some of the words which come from H.E. the President are not peace building words. Sometimes they are terrible and not becoming of the father of the nation. That is why the North suffered very much. Otherwise, right from 1987 to date, the people of the North pushed for peace talks. I thought you should know this. Let it not be that it is only the LRA, there were also some problems with the government side, more especially with the President. Thank you.
 
DR KIYONGA: I thank my colleague for that information and I respect your opinion. I am going in that direction because hon. Atim, for example, did take objection to the words in the Presidents statement and also to some words uttered on the Floor of the House from this side. That is the direction I am going to and we will see if we are together.
 
Hon. Atim, for example, took exception when one of our colleagues on this side said that Kony had been chased from Northern Uganda. These are English words; they may mean different things to us but the fact is that by the time we went for the Juba talks, the bulk of Konys forces and himself were no longer in Northern Uganda or Southern Sudan. They were in the Congo, in Garamba. They had not gone for a picnic; they were really running away from some fire from somewhere. So, for someone to say that this was a result of a (Interruption)
 
MR NYEKO: Madam Speaker, the honourable minister is replying to the State of the Nation Address. To some of us, a state of the nation address is more like trying to politic but the reply the honourable minister is trying to bring up has a lot of bearing on the peace in Northern Uganda and can jeopardise everything. If you looked at what hon. Latigo was saying, he was praising Government for a change of heart. He was praising Government for having embraced the whole peace process. I am concerned with procedural matter, Madam Speaker, whether we should not really restrain ourselves from commenting on some of these matters, which may, especially if it comes from the Minister of Defence, cause more trouble in the North. Thank you.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, maybe in the first place if your side had restrained itself from talking about them, there would be no need for a reply. No one would have touched them. What you have not touched, nobody is going to reply to.
 
MR NYEKO: Madam Speaker, the comment from the opposition side was positive. The comment coming from the other side is negative and can easily jeopardise whatever is taking place. That is my concern.
 
MR FUNGAROO: Thank you very much. I would like to seek for clarification from the Minister of Defence. In my interaction with him, as a person who knows defence and war matters -(Laughter)- and in my interaction with commanders of the UPDF, I learnt that war consists of running. You can run forwards and run backwards; you can run to another country and run this way. But this constitutes stages in the war itself. You can lose a battle but not the war.
 
When we are talking about peace talks, is there no way you can talk about peace talks in a different way from the terms that are used in battle by using words that can build more confidence? Can you not say that at the time of the peace talks, Kony relocated himself to Congo? (Laughter) Yes; these are more friendly and confidence building words. Are these words not easy for you to say, Mr Minister? I thank you.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now, do you want the minister to say, Kony evaporated from Uganda? Maybe that is a friendly word. (Laughter) He did not run, he was not chased, he just evaporated. What can we do?
 
DR KIYONGA: Madam Speaker, I would request my colleagues to know that this response I am making is deeply thought through. I am conscious of the sensitivity of this matter. I am a responsible person and you should listen so that you take my statement in full context, and with the permission of the Speaker, I will even distribute this statement because I said I made notes.
 
As the Rt hon. Speaker has said, it is important that when we take the Floor, backing up the statement made by H.E. the President, we must clarify issues that you have raised and you must give us that opportunity to do so. More importantly, the whole statement should be seen in its full context.
 
Going to confidence building, indeed this Government has taken a lot of measures to show the LRA, the whole country and the international community that we mean serious business in Juba. You know, for example, that the President himself, on telephone, talked to Vincent Otti. This really was not a step that we should disregard; this was in the direction of giving confidence and encouraging the LRA to come to the table and take the talks seriously.
 
Government did facilitate a number of delegations, not just to go to the Juba talks but also to go and meet Joseph Kony and other LRA leaders in Garamba. Hon. Rugunda was there; the mother of Kony was facilitated to reach out to her son; all this was in the interest of creating confidence. The President, not once not twice but many times, has spoken not only in Uganda but also outside Uganda that he is ready, once the peace agreement in signed in Juba, to go out of his way to ask the ICC to reconsider their position so that we handle this matter internally using our cultural procedures. These and other measures do indicate that Government is serious; that Government wants to go an extra mile to ensure that the Juba talks succeed.
 
Summing up this issue of Kony and security in the North, I would like to assert that Government has been consistent in seeking peaceful means to end the Kony insurgency as it has indeed done in regard to other rebel groups in the past. However, Government has the responsibility to ensure security for the people of Uganda and while it is fully committed to a peaceful solution, in the unfortunate event of failure of the talks, it must resort to other means and it is important that the population is reassured that the preferred path to peace are the peace talks but if this should unfortunately fail, a fallback position does exist.
 
In handling this matter, the government is maintaining a regional approach. We are in touch with the Sudan, we are in touch with the DRC, we are in touch with the African Union and the UN on this matter. This is a serious matter, which has caused us problems in our country but which has also regional implications.
 
There is also the issue of our brothers and sisters returning home from the IDP camps. The information we have, Madam Speaker and honourable colleagues, is that more than 50 percent of our brothers and sisters who had been displaced and were living in the camps have returned home. As far as the security side is concerned, we are putting in place measures (Interruption)
 
MR OKELLO-OKELLO: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the honourable minister for giving way. Yesterday, the Committee on Presidential and Foreign Affairs met the Prime Minister and his team. The team came with a number of people who have returned home; it is 30 and not yet 50 percent, precisely 7.44 million. So, they informed the committee that one-third of the IDPs have returned home, which is not 50 percent.
 
DR KIYONGA: Thank you very much, hon. Okello-Okello. We can have time to reconcile our figures because I think the central issue is that our people are going home. Obviously, if they are 50 percent they would better if they were 100 percent. But, the key thing is that there is a direction back home and I want to use this opportunity to outline a few measures on the security side that we are taking to ensure that this going home hold:
 
1.  The Fifth and Fourth Division of the UPDF will stay in place.
 
2.  In regard to the auxiliary forces, although we are now demobilising auxiliary forces countrywide, in the case of the Acholi sub-region the intention is to maintain the 10,000 auxiliary forces that work in that area. This will hold until we are satisfied that the situation is firm and there are alternative means to keep security in that area.
 
3.  In the meantime, as honourable colleagues particularly from the North are aware, the government through the GMC mechanism has been reactivating the police force at the sub-county level. The programme is to ensure that at least 30 police officers are posted at the sub-county level.
 
4.  There has also been - as Charles Gutomoi did say in his constituency, we lost four people. We also got five people injured by a mine. This obviously was very unfortunate, but efforts continue to be made to look out for these mines so that they do not hurt our people who have at long last gone back home and efforts will be made to strengthen these measures.
 
What I have said not withstanding, Madam Speaker, I would like to advise maybe in the spirit that colleagues on the opposite side were speaking on the question of language. On the Floor of the House, during debate, my good friend hon. Okello-Okello did make what we considered a strong statement that Government policies were dividing the country into North and South. This statement is first of all, as far as we are concerned, incorrect because there is no such policy that the government has put in place in order to divide our people. Instead, what is in place, given that our people for nearly 20 years have been living in camps in the North, is to put in place affirmative policies so that we can have faster (Interruptions)
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now, honourable members, we had an opportunity to present our problems. This is just a response.
 
MR OKELLO-OKELLO: Just a clarification -(Interruption)
 
DR KIYONGA: I have not finished answering you so what are you clarifying? So, Madam Speaker, the point is that, a statement like that first of all is inaccurate; secondly, it has the risk that it could discourage the very population that we are serving and could make the population turn the wrong way. So, we do not accept the statement that there are in place policies intended to divide the country into North and South.
 
On the side of Karamoja, as I said, hon. Latigo on behalf of the opposition has noted progress. But, just to amplify on what he said, I would like to inform the House that this ended fiscal year, we collected about 5,200 guns from those holding them illegally. We recovered many domestic animals - cows, goats and sheep - and handed them back to the rightful owners. I am glad to inform Parliament that now a consensus exists on this question, we ourselves in this House, Members of the frontbench, particularly from Defence and our colleagues the Members of Parliament from Karamoja are now speaking one language, that the gun must go. And we are doing joint mobilisation in the area to support this effort.
 
The relationship between the Army and the population is improving by the day.
 
The raids and ambushes into neighbouring districts have dramatically gone down. People can now move during day and night within and out of Karamoja and as I said, we are going to ensure that this progress is further enhanced.
 
As I go towards concluding, Madam Speaker, I thought I should also briefly inform colleagues on the situation in Somalia. When this House took the decision to authorise the President to deploy in Somalia, our colleagues on the opposite side were unfortunately not in the House. But, I would like to confirm that I had quite deep consultation with the Leader of the Opposition. When he said in his statement that he did support the deployment, I completely believed him and I would like to thank him for that spirit! (Applause)  
 
The deployment, as I explained under the African Mission in Somalia, was intended to last until 19 July this year; that is like two to three weeks ago. But, the authority that created AMISON, the Peace and Security Commission of the African Union, did on a timely basis renew the mandate of AMISON on the 18 of July this year. So, AMISON is still on. Colleagues will recall that in our resolution, we did authorise the President to deploy and we had not put a specific time limit. So, our troops stay in Somalia fully covered both by our resolution and the extension by the peace and security council of the OAU.
 
However, I would like to again inform my honourable colleagues that more than six months down the line, since the deployment should have started, it is only the Ugandan troops that are in Mogadishu in Somalia. Ghana, Nigeria, Burundi and other countries that had promised to send troops have not yet done so. Nevertheless, the Ugandan contingent is doing a reasonable work. They continue to protect the transitional federal Government and its institutions; they have secured arms which were in illegal hands of some business people in town; they have also been able to demolish the unexploded ordinances and they are giving protection to the on going governance and reconciliation conference.
 
The logistical question for AMISON remains but there is every hope that very soon this issue may be resolved and countries that had undertaken to send troops will probably do so.
 
In conclusion, therefore, Madam Speaker, I would like to state as follows:
1.  Peace, security and stability are a common good to which both Government and the opposition should be fully committed.
 
2.  Government is fully committed to the Juba talks and we will leave no stone unturned to ensure the successful conclusion.
 
3.  However, in the event of the unfortunate failure of the talks, there is a clear and effective fallback position to ensure that peace, security and stability prevail in the North of our country and elsewhere.
 
4.  The African Mission in Somalia needs strengthening and Government will enhance its effort towards encouraging other players to play their roles.
 
Thank you, Madam Speaker and honourable members
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Honourable members, as we said, these were responses to matters you raised. Let me now invite the Minister of Education.
 
3.53
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SPORTS (Mrs Geraldine Namirembe Bitamazire): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Quite a number of issues and questions were raised. I would like to thank my colleagues, Members of Parliament on both sides, for their constructive remarks, questions and issues raised. I would like to make reference to my notes because the questions were many and in many cases I had to quote some figures.
 
Madam Speaker, I will start with the document presented to this House by the Leader of the Opposition on page 9 where he raises some questions. The first question in that statement was: We are, however, gravely concerned about the data presented to justify the success of UPE, particularly on what they mean and on their failure to accurately portray progress, or lack of it, in quality improvement? The statement further says, &by June 2006, the total population in the primary schools was over 7 million and an average number of pupils per year per class was 1`million, why must only 435,000 pupils register for the primary leaving examinations in 2007?  
 
Madam Speaker, that is a big and elaborate question and I have statistical data here but the response is that the distribution in classes varies quite widely. Primary one has got the largest number but then the enrolment declines as one moves up to P7. Therefore, you will find that the average might not give the actual enrolment but when you look at class by class that is when you get the exact trend of what is going on under the UPE programme.
 
Madam Speaker, I think it will be a little bit boring to read out the figures here. But I want to produce a sheet for each Member to indicate the enrolment from 1997 to 2005 so that they can see the trend in the enrolment of UPE. However, the statement by the Leader of the Opposition had an error; the figures he quoted in the statement are referring to two different years. By 1996, the enrolment was 2.7 million but when the UPE policy was declared in January 1997, the enrolment rose to 5.3 million and since then we have been recruiting teachers.
 
According to the figures we have today, we have an average of one teacher for 48 pupils. We have recruited from 84,000 to 130,000 primary school teachers and the average comes to what the Leader of the Opposition quotes in the statement. But I am only correcting the statement by saying that the figure 2.7 million children was for 1996 -(Interruption)
 
MS AOL: Thank you, Madam Speaker and the minister for giving way. When we talk about the teacher pupil ratio being 1: 47, 48 or even 50, that is not really true in the North. I have schools like Tetugu Primary School; there are only four teachers for 905 pupils. Sometimes you dont even find the teachers at school. Even when I was in Patiko sub-county, although I did not visit Panyikworo Primary Seven School, I was told of the same problem. There are only six teachers for 860 plus pupils. So, maybe the problem is really in the North. Something has to be done in the North that is why when some of us get this data of the ratio of teachers to pupils being 1:47 or 1:50 it is as if we are in a different country. Something has to be done for the North. Thank you.
 
MS ANYWAR: Thank you, Madam Speaker and honourable minister for giving way. I will refer you to Agoro sub-county in my district. There are two schools whereby one of them has only the headmaster as a teaching staff and administrator. Another one has two, the headmaster and one teacher. Therefore, that ratio cannot apply in that sub-county in those two schools. Thank you.
 
MRS BITAMAZIRE: Madam Speaker, I am referring to average numbers. And as we have average, we are looking at the entire population in the primary schools throughout the country and working out the average with the numbers of teachers we have on the payroll and then the average comes to that.
 
But I want also to say that even the enrolment in schools differs. I have been to Kitgum recently and I had gone there to launch a campaign of Go back to school, Stay in school and Continue in school. I was there for two days and I spoke loud and clear encouraging parents to send their children to school. My permanent secretary had been there a week before and there were schools with less than 100 students as total enrolment. So, I am really here now giving average figures, but the figures differ for the enrolment as much as they differ for the teacher-pupil ratio.
 
Then my colleague had earlier on asked about what has been done for the North. I would like to pledge bringing a paper here with details of what we have done as affirmative action for the Northern region. Quite a lot -(Interruption)
 
MR OCULA: Madam Speaker, I am rising on this information because I do not think every Member of Parliament may be so contented with what the minister is explaining right now. Since she is coming back with those other details for the North, let it be for the whole country and let it include the parameters, which are to be used to measure whether there has been increase or no increase in the teacher-pupil ratio.
 
For example, we have been in this Parliament for some time and there has been no significant increase in the wage bill for teachers. Now, how do we account for the increase in number of teachers? I think we would be very much interested in this. There has been training programmes in the colleges, but does the number of teachers trained and recruited by Government match as what is being claimed by the minister? So many colleges as my colleague is supplementing actually closed. I would really be very interested when she is coming up to give us that information to come with this kind of details. Thank you so much.
 
MRS BITAMAZIRE: Thank you very much, my colleague. You have mentioned the wage bill and if I got you right, you were saying that because the wage is so low, probably the number of teachers cannot be so high. But recently, all of us know that we increased the wage for the primary teachers at least for the beginners to Shs 200,000 per month and I want to say that that has made a lot of impact on the teachers morale in many areas of the country. So, the numbers I am quoting of the teachers we have recruited since 1997 is 130,000 teachers as against 84,000 teachers in 1996. So, there has been that much increase.
 
But then, even before I bring the paper, it is not true that all the teachers are employed and they are all on the payroll. Those days have gone and I have told teachers many times that they should not expect to be trained and employed. The teaching profession has become so competitive now that we train teachers, but not all of them would automatically get on the payroll. Therefore, I am really on the campaign telling teachers that the profession that was not competitive probably 20 years ago, is now turning out to be the most competitive. When they train for teaching or become teachers, they should not automatically expect to be recruited. There is a difference between those on the payroll and those we train and qualify, but we can always get more details on this matter.
 
MR OKELLO-OKELLO: Thank you, Madam Speaker and thank you honourable minister. The information I would like to give the minister is this. There are some schools without teachers in this country and there are teachers without jobs in the same country. For example, I have a senior secondary school, Luwum Memorial College, where there are 21 vacancies for teachers and the government has posted only seven teachers and the minister is telling us that you do not train to work. What are we going to do with those vacancies?
 
My second point is a point of clarification. Where you have free education, normally the word added to free in all the laws is appropriate. Free and appropriate education, but in Uganda it would appear that the word appropriate was cleverly left out so that you find that a UPE pupil after P.5 cannot write. Going to school does not mean getting education. Education given must be free and appropriate. The children must learn and the third word in some cases is compulsory. Free, appropriate and compulsory, but we seem to be satisfied with one word. Has the ministry got any intention of improving matters? I thank you.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, you know we are not going to open this debate. Many people spoke on this matter; let us receive these answers. If there is something she glosses over, then please stand up.
 
MRS BITAMAZIRE: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker and I thank my colleagues for raising those questions. I think hon. Okello-Okello is right to say there are schools without teachers and there are teachers without jobs. Members of Parliament might have noted that when now we advertised for jobs of teachers, we indicated where the school is located. I think the last advert was very clear: We want five teachers in school Y in district X. We are repeating that policy because we want those who are interested from within the area to be given a chance. But then on the other hand, those who do not want to go there should not apply and this is what we call school-based advertisement and recruitment.
 
Right now, the Education Service Commission has gone over that. They went around the country interviewing people in their respective areas and in areas of their choice. That is another intervention we are working on so that people are not recruited and then they refuse to go. Somebody in Kampala applies for a job; he is recruited and posted to Amolatar and then she says, I am not going there. So, now we say these posts are available in that district.
 
MR ODIT: Madam Speaker, I want to get it clear from the Minister. There is a very big school in Lira called Lira Nurses Training School. There are teachers or instructors that have been posted there but the Ministry of Education has not given them formal posting instructions. And as a result - actually for one or two years, some of these instructors have been teaching there voluntarily - they are thinking of withdrawing their services.
 
There have been a number of reminders to the ministry to no avail. I do not know whether the Minister is aware of this kind of difficulty. Once we get these instructors withdrawing their services from the North, they might seek alternatives elsewhere where there are greener pastures, and getting teachers for medical personnel will be near to impossible.
 
MS ALASO: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The clarification I would like from the Minister is largely to do with teachers in that part of the country, Northeastern and Northern Uganda. Is it true that the Ministry of Education has now started a new policy of making contracts with head teachers? Because we are confronted with a scenario where people are saying you have to sign a contract and some teachers are opting not to sign contracts with Ministry of Education so that they stay in those schools largely because they think they are not entirely responsible for the outcome of the PLE results.
 
Some of them do not have shelter, they do not have furniture, the text books are not enough, the community and the children they are teaching are so traumatised and need psychosocial support; they are just emerging from war and then the Ministry of Education has come up with a policy to say, You must sign up a contract; you stay here; you be on job only on condition that the children pass so well in this school. I am wondering whether that is really an official policy or somebody is pushing something funny in that part of the country just to undermine the ministry.
 
The second bit of it is to do with coaching. Hon. Minister, I know that it is the policy of the ministry not to do remedial teaching and you have just alluded to the problems in that part of the country, in the North and the Northeastern part of the country, and indeed in the rural areas where there is no electricity and nothing. So, we need affirmative provision to help these children to cope some remedial teaching. But it is very difficult to get the opportunity to have these children taught on a Saturday because there are state machineries out there to arrest any teacher who does that.
 
But right here in Kampala, every day - every Saturday, even during the holidays, children are going for coaching. So, how does this policy from Ministry of Education operate? Is it selective and it allows only Kampala to do remedial teaching and coaching and then up country and in the village areas the policy is enforced very vigorously? Those are the two things. Thank you.
 
MRS BITAMAZIRE: Thank you very much. I think I will continue to answer hon. Okello-Okello and then I will come to the other questions. The hon. Member was wondering whether education is free but is it appropriate. I want to say that UPE is succeeding very well and we have been revising the curriculum and in fact many people are complaining about why we revise the curriculum. We have revised the curriculum several times simply to make it appropriate. It is a very good question and we also want to see that this UPE programme answers peoples needs in education.
 
The latest reform we have made is to encourage teaching in mother tongue in different parts of the country so that the children at the age of five, six and seven can relate at school and home. If a child comes to school the first day in his life at the age of five and a half and then listens to a teacher who speaks English is Oxford, Please sit down, get out, wash your hands, come here, keep quiet, the child will say, My God, what a hell is this we are doing!
 
And before we started this practice, we have consulted with other African countries to see what happens elsewhere, and many professionals in this area of language have advised that if P.1 and P.2 can mix the English and the mother tongue they catch up the concepts much more easily than when they start with a language they do not understand and the language they cannot relate with what is going on at home and in the community. That is what experts have told us and we are still looking at this and trying to see how best we can develop mother tongue at P.1, P.2, P.3, but at the same time we teach English.
 
In the past, any child, even in P.1 on the first day who spoke vernacular would be sent out or harassed. But, now we are saying let the children mix but at the end of the day we are emphasising English because from P.4 onwards, these children will be taught in English. So, we are borrowing that.
 
I will take off a minute to tell my colleagues a story. I was in South Africa late last year and I was boasting to my minister colleagues from all over Africa telling them how proud I was that I was going to introduce mother tongue in P.1. They said, What! What have you been doing all this time? I said, Well, I thought I was reporting on something really very outstanding. They just said, You delayed because you should have used that as a stepping stone for easier and quicker learning. And of course when we came back, we started implementing this programme this year and I want to say that it is taking off quite well.
 
Probably I will use this opportunity to appeal to Members of Parliament and remind them that Uganda is the last one to start on that policy because we have been stuck to English. But the Japanese were telling me for them they know all the sciences in the world but they know it in their own language. It does not have to be English. So, I am only explaining this point of making education appropriate and we are taking all measures to do that.
 
The Constitution is very clear and I have already made the first reading of a Bill to make Primary Education compulsory. When the budget discussions are over, I think that Bill will be discussed and we all agree to make education compulsory at that level but the Bill is already here having been read for the first time.
 
MS ALASO: Madam Speaker, what the honourable minister is saying is a very crucial issue. It is actually one of those very new developments that are puzzling us because we think it is a major policy issue and some of us think it needs a lot of consultation. If I got her right, the honourable minister said that they are now going to instruct children in their mother tongue up to primary three, then when they get to primary four they will begin to instruct them in English.
 
Madam Speaker, I would like to express my fears over the fact that there has been inadequate consultation on this programme. Why do I think so? There are some small groups and even big groups in this country that do not talk about their mother tongue. They even do not, for instance, have a Bible written in their mother tongue despite it having been around for a long time. So, I am worried about the availability of books for some of those various tribes in this country that have not developed.
 
Two, I am also worried about the competitiveness of these children. For example, I like speaking Ateso so much, and all the time that if I could be allowed, I would even speak it in this Parliament. But I studied from Teso using English as a medium of instruction and I think that helped me to be at per with everybody else in this country. If I am a student from Soroti studying with other students from Kampala who originate from Busoga, which mother tongue will you use as a medium of instruction? I see that as another challenge to using this mother tongue approach.
 
That aside, I do not think that a child who is instructed in Ateso for the first three or four years will be as competitive or at the same level with a child who is being instructed and examined in English. I think this programme is intended to just disadvantage children. So, I do not know how the ministry hopes to alley those concerns and ensure that earlier fears especially those that concern textbooks and other write-ups are addressed; how do they plan to address such concerns? Thank you.
 
MR JOHNSON MALINGA: Madam Speaker, just one small issue. Sometime between 2004 and 2005, to check the appropriateness of Universal Primary Education, the Ministry of Education came up with a programme of school testing for primary four pupils. I remember we even passed money for this programme, but for over two years down the road, nothing is being said about this programme. Can the minister make a comment on it?
 
MRS BITAMAZIRE: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Let me begin by saying that the idea of compulsory lunch is coming and the members of Parliament will soon debate a Bill on it. I am taking note of that and I am going to check with the department handling that sub-sector to find out what is going on.
 
Hon. Alaso has talked about the performance contract. What I want to say is that a performance contract is not a service contract; the two are different things. I have had the opportunity to explain it to the teachers and their head teachers, including District Education Officers together with LCV Chairpersons in the entire country. These are performance contracts where we expect a head teacher to say that in such a year we are going to improve on issues such as time management, lesson preparation and extra curricular activities.
 
This is important because when we go to assess his performance, we have a criterion to use. Instead of saying such a head teacher is bad, we are saying that if a particular head teacher said this year, he would say, dig up a rubbish pit, or that he would develop a drainage system in a school, or that he would ensure that children and teachers come to school at 8.00 a.m., then we can assess him/her against such criteria for which he set himself. That is what we call a performance contract. It is important because it saves us from assessing teachers arbitrarily. Assess them against what? We assess you on what you have put down.
 
If you say that pupils will come on time and will not waste any time, but one day a school inspector comes and finds five teachers present, 20 pupils absent and so forth, then that becomes a better criteria of assessing you. We only assess you on the target that you yourself has set. Our hope is that this will encourage primary teachers and the pupils to pull up their socks instead of leaving them to do what they want. We think this is the most objective way of assessing and encouraging our school managers to enable them efficiently run their schools.
 
MS KIIZA WINFRED: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to inform the Minister that some of the people she talked about most especially the district education officers might have misunderstood this process. I am saying this because I have information that some of them do not talk to these teachers about the importance of a performance contract; that if a particular head teacher is found not performing he/she can be demoted or suspended from work.
 
As a result some head teachers after receiving that information have resorted to helping their pupils and students to cheat exams so that they maintain the contract they have signed with respective District Education Officer in their district. So, it is not surprising that recently we were discussing examination cheating by some students in this House. My request is that the ministry should go back to identify possibly the kind of information that the District Education Officers are passing over to these head teachers.
 
MRS BITAMAZIRE: Thank you very much for that information. I have listed it also. Going back to what hon. Alaso raised, I would like to say that coaching is different from teaching; these are two different exercises. That is why as a Ministry, we do not promote it; it is not teaching. It is something that spoils school children, that is why some students cannot even remember what they were coached on when they are writing their exams.
 
We have information to the effect that many of those students who have been coached do not succeed in upper levels of education because they had information just pushed into their heads without understanding the concepts, without internalising the ideas, which are being given to them. So, couching, those of you who have been teachers will realise that it is a different exercise from normal teaching and therefore we do not really promote it as Ministry of Education. Last holiday, we actually tried to even arrest those teachers who were carrying out couching and charging pupils money when what they were teaching them was not useful at all.
 
Let me comment on remedial work, as raised by hon. Alaso. This is organised by individual schools. In fact if a head teacher wants, he can put out remedial work as one of the targets for the year, in which he will organise remedial work either at the end of each day or at any other time. Remedial work is quite different and it is not paid for. It is different from couching where the teachers who run sessions ask for extract money yet they do very little other than misleading pupils and students. So, remedial work is done on the arrangements within the school; it does not have to be a policy. It is assumed that whatever goes on at classroom level is a policy from the top.
 
Many schools have got leeways of organising what they think can improve the teaching in their schools. In that regard, we leave them with some leeways so that we are not seen to restrict them from taking some of the initiatives. I think what we need to do is to explain the difference between teaching, couching and remedial work. Remedial work is a matter of understanding; some of you who have been teachers and I know there are Members of Parliament in this House who were my students, will agree with me that we used to have a lot of remedial work and I am sure they are very happy. So, that is teacher-to-teacher, school-to-school arrangement; it is a local issue.
 
The other issue to comment on is the fear of teaching pupils in their mother tongue. I want to inform Members of Parliament that there should be no fears. For example, I studied in my vernacular up to primary six but I do not think that my English is the worst.
 
HON. MEMBERS: It is!
 
MRS BITAMAZIRE: No, I do not believe that! Anyway, what we are trying to do is to find out ways of knowing how a child relates to the school and the home during the first three year, but at the same time I want to say that we have increased the number of English lessons. This will enhance interaction so that children can pick some concepts while at home so that when you talk of water at home, the child does not find it any different from Akpii or mazzi or something. It will enhance the misconception of concepts by our pupils in primary schools.
 
Our research shows that when a question is asked in a mother tongue, many pupils put up their hands. That means that many pupils know the answer but when it is asked in English very few put up their hands. Why? The answers to such situations are various. First, it could be that few pupils have understood the question. Secondly, it could be that few would volunteer to answer it in English. We believe that this kind of situation is hindering the pace of learning.
 
In urban areas where we have cosmopolitan schools, we are going English. No pupils will be forced. We have identified those schools especially in big towns. We know that there will be those who will benefit and others will not, but well, English is the most common language we can use.
 
I want to inform the House that there are many schools that think that this is a very good idea because, according to them, the pupils especially those in primary one, two and three are positively responding compared to past times and by the time we shift to primary four we shall have collected enough vocabulary.
 
I should also empahasise that you need a given number of vocabularies to be able to communicate in that language. When you have only 10 words in English you cannot understand 90 percent of what is being taught. So, we are trying all these with the hope of making education appropriate and I think we shall get somewhere. Therefore, my request is that honourable members should give us some chance to try it out. I am saying this because as a minister I am facing problems of everybody asking me to do what they did 20 years ago when they were still in school. If we go by this, we might miss it somewhere.
 
Let me take this opportunity to inform honourable members that as a ministry, we are also trying to see that we improve the quality of education in this country. We are hopeful that we shall succeed because we are doing what other countries have done and succeeded.
 
I want to say that district education officers misunderstood the issues of service and performance contracts. I have taken note of that and we shall assist them to understand these issue because I think that they need to understand the purpose of performance assessment just like we, Members of Parliament, are assessed in terms of contribution, by the media at the end of every Session.
 
So, if the head teachers are not assisted to set targets to achieve the desired objectives of education then they will not do what we want. That is why I am assuring you honourable Members of Parliament that I do not think that we shall let them go free. If we do not do this, then we shall not manage. We are doing all this to respond to some of your complaints that have featured absence of teachers in classes, head teachers ever not being there and the lack of books to be used; we are trying to see how best we can improve the situation and I am sure we shall get where we all want to be.
 
I am sorry that quite a number of questions came up as I was trying to respond to the queries that were raised by the Leader of the Opposition. Anyway, I connected the figure which he gave and I would like to emphasise that we are talking about average figures not figures per school; per class or per sub-county and so forth.
 
The Leader of the Opposition also raised something on the construction of poly-techniques in every sub-county, something that Government committed itself to during the 2001 elections. I want to inform the House that though only 16 poly-techniques have been constructed or operationalised out of the proposed 900, we are still working on this programme. I think ideas in manifestos and pledges are not that a programme comes and that in five years it must have reached its completion. In a multiparty setting like ours, many parties will pledge but I do not think that at the end of a given period they will have started and completed them.
 
Anyway, to answer the queries on this, I want to say that we started with 16 and they are running very well. In addition to that let me inform honourable members that we have taken other measures that will see us bring on board private technical institutes schools and colleges so that we can promote, sponsor and equip them to help our students access such education.
 
A long with Universal Secondary Education, we have made access to Universal Post Primary Education and technical and vocational institutions where we offer sponsorship, very possible. We have a thinking that if we do not encourage this programme in the future we might not have people with suck skills. Therefore, quite a lot of efforts have been made and I want to assure you that we have had sponsors from KFW, a German organisation that is already equipping 13 of these institutions. We also have African Development Bank, already helping us to train the instructors so that we can boost this programme under the poly-techniques. We have the European Union assisting us with paramedical. We also have the Japanese who are very famous in technical knowledge assisting us to mobilize resources required to operationalise this programme.
 
On that, I would like to say that the project is not, if I may use the term Dead, but we are going step by step; we are mobilizing resources to make sure that this programme continues. As party members and a multi-party Government, a programme starts with a manifesto, but it requires several terms in office to stabilise such a programme. So, this can continue, and I am sure that even if another Government comes in, it will continue with this; but the pledge was made.
 
Question No. 4 was about university education. Madam Speaker, university education is a concern, but I am very happy to say the private sector has come up very well and now we have more private universities than public universities. We have five public universities and over 15 private universities; the response is very good.
 
But on the issue of quality, the President visited the university and appointed a committee, which has submitted a report and that committee was to review education in the public universities and some private universities, and to advise Government on where the gaps are as a measure of improving quality. That report will be handed to the President on the 10th August, and then the President will turn it on to other stakeholders for comments; then we shall see how many of the recommendations can be implemented to improve the quality.
 
About human resource development and planning, we have a ministry of planning and a planning unit. So, we are working together to find out what areas of human resource development are required right now. I think, with the steps so far taken, very soon we shall see an improved sector of university education in this country.
 
I want also talk about e work done by the National Council for Higher Education. That is a new organ in our management of education but they are doing very well to control the standards and the performance of universities. They go through a legal process before they can license a university and after licensing a university, there is a probation period before they are given a charter. So, with this mechanism of checks and balances, I am sure the quality of university education in this country will improve soon or later. Otherwise, we would not like to jeopardise university education in this country.
 
Finally, let me leave the big document to the Leader of the Opposition. Now, there are several other questions about SFG - SFG was temporally, and I want to emphasise, a temporarily cut down. Last financial year, we sponsored about 29 districts, which were not doing well. This year, we have sponsored up to 35 districts. And I believe that in the financial year 2008/09, we shall return the entire SFG to the government for general access.
 
The idea was that we needed 75 sub-counties in this country that did not have any post-primary schools whatsoever. We had to start schools in those areas and many of you are aware that we put what we called seed schools in your constituencies. So, some of the money from SFG had to be used for constructing schools where there was none and yet we were starting a programme in which we wanted every child to benefit.
 
Now, we are constructing and about to complete 41 new seed schools in 41 areas throughout the country. That leaves a balance of 34 sub-counties. We are mobilizing money from other sources to make sure that we put schools in those areas that are still without- This is a very sensitive area, I would say, because while we encourage the private sector to put up schools, they put them mainly in towns and many individuals do not want to start schools in remote areas. So, it means that the government has to undertake construction of schools in the remote areas.
 
The second question was about uniforms, meals and so forth in UPE and USE. If you look in the Constitution, Article 34(2) says that education is between the government and parents. So, if Government can find money for fees, then the parents should take care of the meals and other personal effects of the students. We still have to do a lot on this matter, but I think our parents and communities would agree that they have some role to play in educating their children. I think question No. 3 was about education being voluntary at UPE (Interruption)
 
MS MUGERWA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Honourable minister, since I am on the government side, I would like to make an appeal to Government, especially your ministry to come out with a final position on the role of parents. The President has gone to many audiences and declared that he is going to arrest head teachers who ask parents to contribute money towards meals for their children. So, I am trying to find out your position on this; could you come out openly to tell the nation about the role of the parents in education?
 
MS BITAMAZIRE: Thank you very much for that question. For UPE, I personally distributed 50,000 copies of guidelines to every district office and I think most schools have got copies. We said, right from the beginning of UPE that feeding, uniforms and stationery are responsibilities of the parents and communities.
 
Again, for USE, every head teacher must have a copy of the guidelines; we said that payment for meals is not compulsory; it is voluntary. What the President said - you see, many head teachers have taken it upon themselves to send away USE students because they have not paid money to feed at school. We made it optional, if you can afford it, it is okay, but if you cannot afford, please do not send away the boy or girl just because she has not paid for food. This is what is jeopardizing the programme; either you pay the money for meals or you do not come and indeed many students have not enrolled simply because it has been made a condition at local levels. Otherwise, the guidelines are very clear. What they are telling me now -
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable minister, I think let us be realistic, I do not know whether you know the mentality of our people. In my place, they think they have a free license to have no responsibility. They get excited when the President says, You people, I will arrest any teacher -, they say, Now we are free to produce children, Museveni will pay. They take it as a license to be irresponsible and the children stay hungry. How can a child stay hungry from morning until 5.00 p.m.?
 
MR NSUBUGA: Madam Speaker, I just want to add that many parents, especially in Buvuma Islands do not want to buy even exercise books, pens, pencils (Interruptions)- not even uniforms. So, I would like the minister to assert conclusively parents think the moment you can produce, then Government is willing to take care of your children. So, we should make it a policy that  actually education is not made up of tuition only, there are other things, which must accompany it. We should really emphasise that issue rather than blaming the head teachers. They cannot allow children without scholastic materials in class because they would only come to play.
 
To add on that, when I was in primary, we used to have porridge. I do not know whether the standard has changed that now a baby in P.1 can afford to remain in class, hungry from 8 a.m. up to 5 p.m. just because it is UPE. We should be a bit more flexible, and I would like to take up the idea of hon. Okello-Okello, because a programme should be appropriate and not just free, and the parent must assist. Thank you.
 
MR KIBANZANGA: Madam Speaker, last week, I stood in this House questioning the reasons why we train our children. The issue of uniformity in education is very important. For some people to have lunch in the school compound while some do not have, and just drink water, some are coached some are not, some learn Lukonjo, others do not  what sort of education system are we promoting in this country, and where is it driving us to? Education should drive us towards a common nationality, a common citizenship. Do not promote populism in education. Madam Speaker, can we have a mode of sustaining our children at school along side free education? Thank you.
 
MS EKWAU: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. This time, I will talk as an African mother. It is very uncouth for a mother in a family, to pick three children and have them eating food while the rest of the family is watching. How do you expect the child who is not eating to feel? Others are picked and taken to eat just because their parents can afford it, while the rest of the population, who cannot afford are let hungry for the whole day.
 
Honourable minister, it is high time Government came out and declared its position, once and for all. We cannot continue with a country where some animals are more equal than others. If not, the spirit of nationalism will die from the local level and you we will never recover it. Thank you very much.
 
MR MAGULUMAALI: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I would like to add my voice to the former speakers, who have contributed and asserted that the minister should come out and direct the nation, and encourage the parents to love their children. It is really disheartening to see primary children going to school  I can give an example, during our school days, we used to carry mawolu to school, until it was discouraged because meals were being provided.
 
But now, the President has taken a position that there should be no collection of funds for meals or anything at school. And now the minister is not assertive enough; the parents are folding their hands. We are teaching parents to hate their children. Where is the parental love? At least (Interruption)- let this whole House request the minister to advise the President to stop threatening to arrest head teachers, otherwise we are creating hatred. How can you send children to school hungry, and you still claim that they are your children? Where is the parental love? Thank you very much, and I hope this advice will be taken.
 
MS MUGYENYI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to seek clarification from the minister on the issue of consistence on what Government says, and also to allow parents and the community  PTAs to take some responsibility so that they can take charge. For example, quite often, you find that the PTA has made a decision that because the children are hungry, they cannot learn. Some children sleep by 11.00 oclock in the morning. So, the PTA may decide that a fee be charged to provide a simple meal for the children.
 
Now if Government comes up and talks against it  we all care about the standards of education of our children in school. So, there is a problem, when the minister says this, and the President says something else on a rally somewhere. There is need for consistency. The minister has just said that meals are free. In other wards, some schools can charge. But then the President said, If I ever get anybody charging any fee under UPE or USE, it will be a crime. I have heard this several times. So, we need to have a clear policy so that we can be able to guide the schools in our constituencies on what the government policy is on feeding children in schools.
 
Secondly, the other problem is application of the same tool. I would like to speak slightly differently from what hon. Kibanzanga said. There are children who are in IDP camps, where the parents probably cannot afford food. So, shouldnt there be a policy that takes care of communities? We have had children from Karamoja on the streets, and we know that Karamoja is deprived of food from time to time. How do you expect schools like those and such families to provide meals to their children when even at home it is difficult to provide food? Could there be some variation - applying different policies for different areas according to the conditions? Thank you, Madam Speaker.
 
MRS BITAMAZIRE: Thank you Woman Member of Parliament for Masaka. You have asked that we make the role of the parents clear. Well, what I am telling the House is not different from what the President said. The question is, should a child be prevented from enrolling in school simply because he cannot pay for lunch Should feeding be a condition for children to access education? Head teachers tell parents to either have the food or pay for the food. That is where the head teachers have had a problem. Many of them have made it mandatory that to register pupils for USE, they have to pay whatever amount is paid by that school. Yet Government is telling parents to ensure their children access education where they can.
 
Now, what I think is the issue - because we have discussed this for the last ten years with UPE - is how have we sensitised the parents? When my colleagues say the Minister should assert herself, I have asserted myself. (Laughter) I have. I do not know whether hon. Magulumaali is here.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: He has just been speaking.
 
MRS NAMIREMBE: Okay. I am sorry I will single you out because this morning I received a telephone call from a parent who told me that he is in Kampala. He was put in prison for failing to pay money, which had been agreed upon in Kanyogoga Primary School. They sat and agreed to pay money to construct some buildings but those who could not pay were put in prison.
 
Two weeks ago, I invited the RDC to my office with the papers of those who signed voluntarily but now they picked on those who had not paid and took them to prison. I asked the RDC in Rakai to go back and make sure those parents who are in prison are released. That type of approach some people can afford, others cannot  (Mr Malinga rose_) let me finish this case.
 
It is good this is coming when I have just heard about this scenario. I asked the caller who is Member of Parliament is and he told me it is hon. Magulumaali. I told him I would talk to the MP and ask him to go and see what exactly is going on there. People are being pushed in prison. The entire school is in chaos because of this push and pull. So, we have got the guidelines, we have given all sorts of sensitisation and I think what we need to do now is to continue sensitising.
 
MR TINKASIIMIRE: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I thank the Minister for those clarifications. When you alluded to the cases of Rakai where they arrested people I remembered some cases in my constituency. There is a similar scenario in one of the parishes where they had apprehended some people and I had to go to Police to make sure that they are released.
 
There are also some other issues, which are coming up. What is the government policy in circumstances where either a pit latrine collapses in a school or a wind blows off the roof or there are also some other charges that are being introduced like to print special exams. Some cost is being charged on parents. We want to know the policy. Are you aware of such charges? What are you doing about this, or what is your policy to handle such emerging circumstances that are geared towards making the schools attractive for our children?
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, those are important- but let us deal with the fundamental one of children staying hungry in school. I think for us that is the most important. Should children stay hungry in school? Are parents allowed to be free not to make any contribution- things like building can wait, but the hunger, from morning until evening?
 
MS ALASO: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Ministry of Education and sports issued a stakeholder handbook. This was way back in 1995. It also issued another book in 1997 or thereabout, it was called Roles and Responsibilities of Stakeholders in Education. In one of those books you clearly outline the role of the community. One thing the ministry told the community at the launch of UPE was that the community should be responsible for feeding the children. It is in the guidelines provided by Ministry of Education and Sports. It is true it is in the guidelines of the government of Uganda provided by Ministry of Education and Sports, if I recall very well one of the books was signed by hon. Khiddu Makubuya the then hon. Minister. (Laughter)
 
So, it is expected of the community to feed these children. It is expected of the community according to those guidelines to provide shelter, put up teachers houses where the teachers houses are not, put temporal shelter like latrines and protect installations in the school. That is what is expected. So some communities in a bid to operationalise this have gone ahead to make a by-law and when they make by-laws, parents are bound by those by-laws. Parents have to bring the children if they all agree to cultivate potatoes so that the children eat. All parents have to make an effort to the potato cultivation. If they sit down in a school and agree to feed the children, they are all bound and they have a responsibility.
 
What is happening, Madam Speaker, is that there are parents who have decided either to be very stubborn or just deliberately thrive on these uncoordinated messages. They wait when the President says, Nobody should charge a shilling then they even refuse to feed their children. I think it is about time Government decided. And I think these messages should now be clearly harmonised. If Government has reached a point where the Government of Uganda thinks the community has no role totally in the education of its children, it is 100 per cent sponsored by the government, please withdraw the guidelines to stakeholders, amend them and let Government feed these children.
 
You are making the community passive. These stubborn people simply sit back. They do not want to buy their children uniform, the poor headmaster cannot chase them. They do not want to contribute to anything in the school. And I think that is dangerous. It is very dangerous for as long as parents and guardians take advantage of those uncoordinated statements.
 
MR MALINGA: Madam Speaker, I have been a long time member of the Committee on Social Services in this Parliament. Around 2005, a minister of the government of Uganda launched a school-feeding programme after we had passed money to start the school feeding programme, and in one of her messages in Okude Primary School, she said the government had started on a school feeding programme which was going to be nation-wide.
 
Just a few minutes ago, I asked the Minister what happened to the money that we passed about the mid school examinations. She has not answered. We also passed some money on the school-feeding programme. What happened and because some parents are now expecting that the school-feeding programme is going to be nationwide and the President is promising to arrest anybody who will ask for money for feeding, the parents are waiting. What happened?
 
COL (RTD) BUTIME: Madam Speaker, thank you. It might be very difficult now for the Minister to contradict the President right here given the rumour about the changes in the Cabinet. (Laughter) I would propose that you give her time to consult with the President and other stake holders so that may be in another two or three weeks she can come back and enlighten this House on how she intends to handle this matter. But I think she has heard. Thank you very much. (Laughter)
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: May be just to amend a bit, the stakeholders should also involve Members of this House. I hope they do not just consult the teachers and themselves. I think let this House also be involved in the consultation.
 
MRS BITAMAZIRE: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I think the suggestion by hon. Butime is very good. (Laughter) I want to say there is no contradiction. The idea is that if your child goes to Kololo Secondary school and the head teacher tells him to find another school simply because you do not have money for meals. That is what the President is saying. It should not be a condition that before you even get in the classroom you must pay money.
 
I am naming Kololo because two pupils came to my office to say they were denied registration because there was that restriction. I had to send an officer immediately to make sure that food is not a condition for registering under UPE or under USE. But we shall consult on that, but If we make it conditional, well and good. But I would not like to support that idea. Otherwise, I think hon. Butime has given very good way forward.
 
I think the same applies to consistency which hon. Mugyenyi talked about. What I am learning from mass media is that one takes what one wants to know. The latest statement, and I will look it up and bring it here, by the President was that this should be voluntary and not a condition. They tell you, You either have paid this much or do not come. That is what was going on and that is what exactly the President is saying. We shall continue to coordinate the statements but I think they are coordinated.
 
The question of school feeding programme, when analysed the programme we realised that it would not be sustainable. There is no point starting on a programme, which you see cannot be sustained. We subject some of these policies to policy analysts. After analysing they are able to tell you, You can do it for this year or next year but the other year you cannot. The idea was to turn milk into flour or to distribute liquid milk all over the country. The policy analysts advised us that it could not be sustainable. Therefore, we abandoned that and money was reverted to other expenses.
 
It was the same thing that happened to the mid-term exam. We listened to the people  this Government listens to the people. People were saying that it would disorganise the programme and pupils would sit primary four exams and drop out. So, we abandoned that and money was returned to where it comes from. Sometimes we have to be flexible, especially when we are talking about nation-wide programmes and policies.
 
Where a policy or a project is subjected to policy analysis and it does not pass the test we do not have to push it just because we made a statement in Parliament. Some of them we drop when we look at them a second time and notice that they cannot be either implemented properly or sustainably. So, those two programmes, school feeding and mid- term exams were dropped because they would be very difficult to sustain. We did not want to get into scenarios where one would sit primary four and then say, Well I have passed. Why dont I go home? I have done my bit. So we dropped that one.
 
I will definitely take hon. Butimes advice and we shall discuss the idea of feeding here so that we all move in the same direction. I have answered most of the questions but let me also answer this on education in Karamoja. Education in Karamoja is a little bit complicated and I want to say that the Movement and the NRM governments have done so much in that region to make sure that children access education.
 
We have a programme called ABEK. I do not think I need to go over it again because the Hansard is has many of my statements on ABEK in Karamoja. But now with USE we have given them what we call affirmative action. We have allowed them to admit pupils beyond 28 marks and we are considering making some schools boarding so that they can leave the manyattas and come to live in schools.
 
Many donor governments are coming up with rehabilitation programmes to make sure that Karamoja region catches up. We are specially training teachers for Karamoja because we were posting teachers there and they dont go. We are now picking from their region. Many programmes are in place to make sure that the Karamoja region gets on the track as far as education is concerned.
 
Madam Speaker, as you realise there are so many questions and so many answers can be given but for the time being I have clarified most of the questions, apart from this one on laboratories. About laboratories, we are doing our best. What we are doing now is even to supply science kits whereby a teacher carries a box with all the items needed for a given lesson in an ordinary class. We are doing everything possible to make sure that science education picks up in our schools. Otherwise, we shall remain behind for generations to come simply because we are waiting for an ideal situation. I want to say the head teachers, pupils and parents have done very well in this direction.
 
MR TASHOBYA: Madam Speaker, this is about provision of laboratories in USE schools. A number of private schools have been taken on to admit USE pupils for secondary education but many of these schools as we are aware are not sufficiently equipped with laboratories.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: But she has just said it. That was the last thing she talked about.
 
MR TASHOBYA: The way I understand is that provision of laboratories also is to extend to private schools, which are taking on USE pupils.
 
MR MUWUMA: Madam Speaker, the question I raised was about the pupils who got between 28 and 32. What is their fate? It is not decided. Secondly, there are schools that have never accessed USE funds right from first term and yet the term is coming to an end.
 
MR MENHYA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Last year, I remember there was a programme to be rolled out by the Ministry of Education in regard to subjecting children in lower primary four to national examinations.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: But she has already answered that.
 
MR MENHYA: Madam Speaker, may I find out from the Minister whether this programme still holds. I thank you.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: She has already answered that. She said she abandoned it because it was not sustainable.
 
MR ARUMADRI: Madam Speaker, when I visit my children in secondary schools I notice they are very tired. The number of subjects now being taught from my time of eight has now risen to 14. [Hon. Members: They are 17 subjects] - now considering the age of children attending school and you expect them to study 14 subjects. Are they learning optimally? Has the ministry considered rationalising what is important for kids at that age? Thank you.
 
MR ODIT: Madam Speaker, I also raise the question of what policy the government has in place to rehabilitate the old and dilapidated schools and whether these schools are still very good, and if they can be taken care of. Some of them -(Interruption)
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: For example?
 
MR ODIT: For example in my constituency, I have Comboni College Ngeta, Dr Obote college in Boroboro, St Catherine in Boroboro, and what we call third world schools which were brought on board in the early 80s. I have Bara Secondary School and Amach Secondary School. So, really honourable minister, you can see that my constituency is not likely to benefit from the said schools that you are constructing now. However, we can only benefit from this programme through the school rehabilitation programme; and some have asbestos on their roofs, which was a serious debate in this House last year. I want to appeal to the minister to really address this component very seriously. Thank you.
 
Mrs Bitamazire: Thank you very much. I think the first question was whether or not we are constructing school facilities in those schools, which are over enrolled. I want to say that we are mobilizing resources. I have contacted the Minister of Finance and he has been agreeable that we are going to make additional facilities for those schools that are over enrolled.
 
Secondly, we are in partnership with the private community schools; 355 are on board from private and community. This is the first time the government of Uganda is coming into a memorandum of understanding with the private community schools to enrol students under the USE programme and I think the question was, can we also assist them? We are going to operationalise the memorandum of understanding and we are now drafting further conditions and criteria for the partnership. When you read literature on schools in other countries, you will find that that is how governments managed to sponsor education at that level through that partnership. So, we started it with 355 schools and we are developing and promoting that relationship with a view of improving it so that it works.
 
We are paying Shs47,000 per term per student in those schools and we expect those schools to use the additional funds that we are giving them because some of them were charging 20,000 per term. But we have made it Shs47,000 per term, per head and many of them have acknowledged that they are getting a little bit better revenue and this will help to improve on the schools. I have taken note and I will speak with the honourable Member of Parliament who said that some of the schools have not yet received their money and ask him to give me the particulars so that we can follow up that.
 
14 subjects as against the 41; we are also addressing the issue of how many subjects are core and really relevant and I am already in consultation with some donors to help us re-organize the curriculum so that it is relevant, adequate and can meet the needs of the students. Probably here, Madam Speaker, let me say that when Ugandans go to other schools abroad they shine. That is one thing many Ugandans are not aware of. Our education is solid; they learn so much that they do so well in any university, in any school.
 
I came back from Kigali on Sunday, where I had gone to participate in what we called the Education Exhibition, the first of its kind in the region. We wanted to compare notes on education between Uganda and Rwanda, and I want to assure you that people there are dying to come here. But why? First, because of English, secondly, we really give a lot of knowledge to our young people and whoever completes senior six here goes in any university be it on the continent or abroad and does very well. Many parents have even confessed that their daughters and sons were given a free year to get to the second year simply because what they knew was so much and was so good, that they were articulate and so forth. So, through the curriculum the quality of our students is very good.
 
All the same, we are adjusting and reviewing it to make sure that we include some of the skills, which are desirable at this state in the development of our country. We are addressing that issue, not that we cut it down to avoid children getting tired, but that we come up with a mixed balanced curriculum that will combine the academic, the intellectual growth, the skills and so forth so that our Ugandan-educated people continue to shine when they go elsewhere.
 
Rehabilitation of old schools: I am very happy to report that we have  I think a ground will be broken starting this year - the African Development Bank is coming up to assist us. We have put money in the budget for a few - we cannot do all at the same time - but it is a priority that the old traditional schools are rehabilitated so that they can continue serving the population. I cannot tell right now what schools are on that list but at least I know is, I think before the end of this year Sir Samuel Baker will be rehabilitated and then the others will come along in the framework of activities. I thank you, Madam Speaker.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, I think let us leave the Minister of Education. You can get her when you are meeting for the policy statements.
 
5.23
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR GENDER LABOUR AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT(LABOUR, EMPLOYMENT AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS) (Mr Mwesigwa Rukutana): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Four issues were raised touching my ministry and I wish to apologise from the onset that I was not around but I captured them from the distillation made by the Chief Whip.
 
The first issue was, what is Government policy on job creation? Madam Speaker and honourable members, job creation is a key consideration when Government is formulating all plans and policies. When you look at all the government programmes to mention but a few, when you look at the PEAP; when you look at the industrialisation strategy, when you see the measures put in place to stabilise the macro economic environment so as to attract foreign direct investment and when you look at the bonna bagagawale and the rural electrification programme, you will see that all these are aimed at creating an atmosphere where all able-bodied and all able-minded human beings can access sustainable employment.
 
Needless to point out honourable members, job creation is the most private sector-led. The Government is therefore, maintaining a conducive environment for the private sector to undertake investments with the objective of job creation.
 
Further more, Government is encouraging and facilitating micro-enterprise development with the objective of creating self-employment both at individual and household level.
 
Now, cognisant of the importance of focusing its attention on job creation, the government, through my ministry, is formulating an elaborate employment policy. This policy is now at draft stage. In this policy, all the issues to do with job creation are adequately addressed. Cabinet will soon debate the policy and when cabinet has passed it, it will be tabled before this august House for your input and/or approval. I think that disposes of issue No 1.
 
The second issue, Madam Speaker, was that there is need to do a gender audit to know where we are and to chart a way forward. Madam Speaker, I entirely agree with that proposition. Apart from the obvious sectors like Parliament where we know that we have about 32 percent women, cabinet about 22 percent women, local Government elective offices about 44 percent, I agree and it has been the wish of my ministry that we carry out a comprehensive gender audit. Indeed, in all our plans and submissions, we have indicated so. However, due to budgetary constraints we have not been able to achieve our wish. It is only our hope that when our economy improves and resources are availed to us we shall be able to perform this very important function. I hope that answers issue No.2-(Interruption)-when resources permit. Issue No.3 -(Interjection)
 
MR NYEKO: Madam Speaker, I am rising as a member and Vice Chair on the Committee on Government Assurances. Most of the answers being given by ministers are assurances to the House, however, they have not even been giving any timeframe. As a member I was trying to raise something but it was just brushed away. Can you, through your Chair, please help us to let the ministers give us a timeframe of whatever they are trying to promise this House? Thank you so much.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Minister I think you are talking about commitments made which have timeframes and which all of us the signatories are supposed to have reached. Perhaps you could try to focus a bit more on how quickly you are going to move in that direction.
 
MS ALASO: Madam Speaker, I seek some clarification on the gender audit. You know this matter of the gender audit has been on for some time and it has been a concern from the time of the promulgation of the 1995 Constitution and the many Acts that came after. We are all wondering how we are doing and it is no longer satisfactory for us to stay with a third or with a few women representatives here and there.
 
We are all looking at the world and it is moving towards gender parity. We are looking at very shining examples like our neighbours in Rwanda. So, while the minister is still looking at resource mobilisation- I do not know when he will get all the money- I want to understand what is going on in form of basic processes, to ensure that at some point we do a gender audit. It is not enough to probably just repeat to us the gender audit. What processes are happening in the ministry in that direction?
 
MR RUKUTANA: Thank you Madam Speaker and the honourable member for raising that important concern. As I said, year in and year out, when we make our projections and we submit our plans, the gender audit is one of the activities we want to undertake but because of budgetary constraints, we are told there are no funds to carry out the plan. So, I am not the person competent to tell you when we shall be in position to get the funds to do so.
 
An elaborate plan is already in place; all it is waiting for is to get the resources to do the audit. But as I said, whenever we present our plan, when it comes to prioritisation, that activity does not catch the eye of the people who are in charge of prioritisation. So, I am not competent to say when, but I am only hoping that when we start selling oil, when the war in the North ends, when we have stable power, when our tax revenues increase, then we shall be in position to get extra resources to carry out these important activities. (Interruption)
 
If you want a target I would say, Madam Speaker, that for us we are prepared and we were prepared yesterday to carry out the audit. If the resources do not permit, what do I do?
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: But honourable minister, your ministry used to be very attractive to donors when you presented things that they think would help the country. Are you no longer marketable as a ministry? It was very attractive in the past and they used to fund some of these activities.
 
MR RUKUTANA: Madam Speaker, as you know very well, the Ministry of Finance is the chief resource mobiliser. Unfortunately this activity has not caught the eye of any donor notwithstanding our efforts to get a donor to do that. However, we shall endeavour to continue looking at -(Interjection)
 
MS ALASO: Madam Speaker, is the honourable minister of Gender, Labour and Social Development in order to come here to say that this issue has not been favoured by those who set priorities when he should be setting priorities for his ministry?
 
Secondly, is he also in order to say that Ministry of Finance has not seen this as a key issue when he used to be in Ministry of Finance until a few months ago? (Laughter)
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think you have caught him on the wrong leg. I will not make any ruling on that matter. Please answer and conclude.
 
MR RUKUTANA: I thank you Madam Speaker. I really wish to apologise to the honourable members but these are realities on the ground, which I cannot do away with. Madam Speaker, the other issue was on the minimum wage, that the minimum wage should be addressed in order to stop the exploitation of our people. It is true that in some sectors our people are being exploited. However, as honourable members may know, it is also true that there is rampant unemployment and as result, our people are willing to sell their labour for any amount of money in order to earn a living. This is terrible, and it is neither the desire nor the aspiration of the NRM Government. However, this is the reality on the ground, which for now we may not be able to ignore. The matter of a minimum wage is therefore not that simple to handle.
 
Having said that, I wish to repeat that my ministry is in the final stages of formulating an employment policy, which among other things will address the issue of a minimum wage. As I said earlier, the policy is in its draft stage and will soon be tabled before Cabinet. Further to that, my ministry is in the process of constituting a minimum wage board, which will review an earlier report made way back in 1989. That review will study the current environment, the conditions of employment and all the aspects of our economy in order to come up with concrete and realistic proposals on the minimum wage.
 
The other issue was raised by hon. Kibanzanga. He stated that in Lacam Camp in Kapchorwa there is slavery of blacks by the whites who defecate in buckets and call blacks to empty them. On this one, I really needed further and detailed particulars. Our ministrys records do not indicate a Lacam Camp, but hon. Kibanzanga sent me a note just now telling me that that camp is a transit camping site with accommodation and cottages at Sipi Falls. Whatever it is, if that practice is happening it is terrible and unacceptable. As a ministry in charge of social protection, we undertake to carry out a thorough investigation with a view of bringing the culprits to book.
 
Those are the responses to the issues that were raised about the Ministry of Gender, Labour and Social Affairs. I thank you.
 
5.37
THE MINISTER OF STATE, OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT (ETHICS AND INTEGRITY) (Dr Nsaba Buturo): Madam Speaker, I want to express my delight that honourable members found it important to raise matters to do with corruption in our country. I have always believed that until Ugandans have attained that critical mass of collective revulsion against corruption, we will not go very far in reducing it appreciably. So, I want to express my delight and encourage honourable members to continue speaking and also doing something about this situation that continues to rear its ugly head in our countrys governance.
 
The first issue that was raised by honourable members was to do with the need to declare war against corruption and not just pay lip service. The issue of lip service is a complex one, and one could say it is at the heart and root of the corruption that we see in our country - lip service from those who express revulsion and lip service from those who are expected to do something about the situation. It is a general problem, and I would wish to report to you that until Ugandans collectively move away from the lip service situation we see, we are not going win this fight against corruption.
 
Let me say that Government is doing its best. I must say here that I am not going to brag about our achievements; there is still room for improvement. We are continuing to review the laws that we have already put in place and we are continuing to introduce new legislation. Very shortly I will be before this House introducing new legislation and seeking support of members so that we have a law that we believe will finally make an impact in our fight against corruption.
 
We are also improving the capacity of anti-corruption agencies in matters to do with investigations and prosecution. The budget of many of these agencies has been increased and our partners have also given us additional resources. We do think that in so far as human capacity of these agencies is concerned, we are going to see some considerable change in the not too distant future.
 
We also intend to mobilise the country because this is one of the major gaps that one could say is responsible for this situation continuing as it is - the fact that our people have not sufficiently expressed the kind of revulsion that we want to see against corruption. There are times when our people condone corruption. Many times they admire those who are corrupt and this tends to give extra oxygen and energy to those who are involved in perpetuating corruption. (Interruption)
 
MS AKIROR: Thank you so much, Madam Speaker, and thank you honourable minister for giving way. I am seeking clarification from the honourable minister. He says that there are those who condone corruption and yet there is a practice, which his ministry should have advised His Excellency that it is also a form of corruption, for example, what is taking place under his State House - the allocation of funds to unconstitutional offices like the office of the First Lady. I do not know what his ministry is doing to see that this practice is stopped if indeed it is happening. I would like the honourable minister to clarify to the House how funds are allocated to unconstitutional offices in this country. Thank you.
 
MR MALINGA: I do not know whether what is displayed in the press is all true. I read in the press that one minister, by the names of hon. Nsaba Buturo, had taken some money from a radio station. If the same minister that I read about is the minister speaking now, would it not be good for this country if he demonstrated that once you are caught up in a corruption scandal, we do not condone it at all by resigning.
 
MR AMURIAT: Madam Speaker, the honourable Minister for Ethics and Integrity has just told this House that he knows some people who were encouraging corruption. He said that there are people who are encouraging corruption. I know that when a statement is made on the Floor of this House, it needs to be substantiated. I would like the Minister to substantiate his statement. Besides substantiating his statement, he should also inform this House what steps he has taken to deal with these individuals who are involved in abetting corruption. Thank you.
 
DR NSABA BUTURO: Let me start with the matter of the Shs20 million. It is important that when we appear before the honourable members, we indicate that we are knowledgeable and that we are up-to-date with events. In this particular case, I do not know where the honourable member was when I clarified matters that the Shs20 million was used to fund a Government activity. It does seem to me that the honourable member continues to be under the illusion that the money was pocketed. It was not. It was a commitment and my office did undertake that it would refund the money and we have already done so to Mega FM. So, it is not as the honourable member continues to think that money was embezzled; certainly not.
 
MR WADRI: I wish to thank the honourable minister. I have stood here with a lot of hesitation because I know the minister responsible. What has forced me is the type of explanation he is trying to give.
 
In as far as financial management is concerned and the manner in which activities and programmes are implemented by line ministries, I have never come across any provisions in the accounting instructions of Government of Uganda that ministers begin personally requisitioning and receiving money and then they go ahead to implement programmes. I have never known of that. Where did that authority come from? Why was it not the responsibility of the Permanent Secretary as the accounting officer or any of his officers to go and sign for that money? Why did the Minister himself have to go? I need an explanation.
 
MR WILLIAM NSUBUGA: Madam Speaker, I am a little bit confused. I have to declare that I am a member of the Public Accounts Committee. This issue was actually dealt with by the Public Accounts Committee and I do not remember vividly whether a report was submitted. If at all a report was submitted, Parliament should have pronounced itself on the matter.
 
However, in accounting principles, there is a difference between corruption and an irregular payment. An irregular payment implies that you did a good job for this nation but you had no authority whereas with corruption, you divert money for your own benefit. So, as we are debating, we should separate the two.
 
I would love to be advised if the report of the Public Accounts Committee was brought here. If we pronounced ourselves, then the issue ceases to exist. We should not be mixing the two. If Parliament is going to work as PAC, then what is the essence of PAC? Everything should come here and we debate it as it is. The matter that they have brought was settled sometime back. It should therefore not appear and it is no longer a query. The moment you serve a sentence, you cease to be a criminal.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Nsubuga, maybe as a member of PAC you are aware of those facts but I am not aware. We have not debated that report here. How can you enclose everybody and say, Say no more? We do not know. I think you should be telling us to hasten the PAC report and we debate it.
 
DR NSABA BUTURO: Madam Speaker, I agree entirely with hon. Nsubuga. I think this is a case of some of the honourable members not really knowing what has gone on recently. I did clarify matters then before PAC and I did also explain that it was not procedurally right to have used funds for a purpose that was different. I thought the matter had ended then because we did clarify that. (Laughter)
 
Hon. Nsubuga is right -(Ms Alaso rose_)- I have no time for information. (Laughter) Hon. Nsubuga has made a very interesting distinction that I would wish members do appreciate. Embezzlement or corruption, which means that you abuse office for personal gain, is certainly not what took place in this case. It was a case of using funds to do an activity for which those funds should not have been used. I did clarify and I also acknowledged that that kind of enthusiasm should not happen again. (Laughter) I know that I have received (Interruption)
 
MS ALASO: Thank you very much. I know the honourable Minister is in charge of ensuring that all of us behave very ethically and that all of us watch against abuse of office and misuse of funds. Is he therefore in order to stand here and discourage members from being enthusiastic in their effort to try to ensure that no misuse of public funds happens in this country? He has just stood up and said, I hope that kind of enthusiasm does not happen again; is he in order to discourage us from being enthusiastic in our work? (Laughter)
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, I think he was saying that the kind of enthusiasm he displayed is what he does not want other people to engage in -(Laughter) That is what he said.
 
DR NSABA BUTURO: Madam Speaker, let me continue responding to the issues that the honourable members did raise. Let me go back to one issue that my ministry intends to take on robustly, and that is raising awareness among the population. At the moment, our view is that the people have not sufficiently come on board to assist us in fighting corruption. We have a series of programmes we intend to carry out in the course of the coming months on radio and in print to help us mobilise that support from the population.
 
The issue of corruption requiring a new approach was raised by honourable members. In my view, what we need at the moment is to work together and not leave matters to Government alone. Everyone in the community must play their part, and that is why we think that programmes of mobilising the public and raising awareness, which we intend to embark on, will give us that additional edge over the challenge we face, which is corruption. (Interruption)
 
MR ANOKBONGGO: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, and I thank the honourable minister for giving way. Mr Minister, it would be in the interest of everybody here and the public if your ministry could actually identify the manifestations of corruption and make it bare to the public. Thank you.
 
MS AKELLO: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, and I thank the Minister. You are asking Members of Parliament and the general public to help in the process of mobilising people against corruption. I am just thinking of how a Member of Parliament like me can help the population fight corruption in the Police.
 
I was in Pader two weeks ago and I heard about two scenarios. I heard about a man who had a complaint about his child being defiled. He had all the evidence and he went to the police to report the case. The policeman simply asked him for some money for transport; he said, How will I arrest this suspect if I do not have transport because we are not facilitated to do so? The poor man did not have money and so he sits. After finding the problem so pressing and he could not sit on, he went back but the policeman refused. The poor man went and looked for the Shs 5000, which he could afford. When he brought the money, the policeman said, How can Shs 5000 facilitate me to arrest a suspect? So, this poor man went back for another week looking for more money. He managed to get another Shs 5000 to make it Shs 10,000. This poor man went back, gave the policeman the Shs 10,000 and the policeman just sat down and did not arrest the suspect.
 
A second scenario was just three days ago. A teacher defiled a girl child and was taken to police. This teacher paid some money to the police and was released untried. How shall we help in this? Thank you.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Internal Affairs wants to talk about the Police.
 
THE MINISTER OF INTERNAL AFFAIRS (Dr Ruhakana Rugunda): I have some information, Madam Speaker. This very case that the honourable member has raised is really a straight case of corruption and it needs to be more thoroughly investigated and the culprits brought to book. So, I think you should give us more information and we follow it up. Thank you.
 
DR NSABA BUTURO: Madam Speaker, that is one way an honourable Member of Parliament, like our colleague from Pader, can actually fight corruption by reporting that kind of case. Fortunately, the Minister of Internal Affairs is here.
 
I think this is a matter that we are all involved in together. The point I am making is that there is a tendency to point fingers, little knowing that the other fingers are actually pointing at you. We all have to do our bit so that we stop the game of pointing fingers or looking at Government alone as if Government will deliver the victory against corruption. We all need to come together genuinely and accept the point made concerning lip service. I do find that a problem, which we need to collectively not only condemn but to find ways to overcome.
 
Madam Speaker, the second point (Interruption) 
 
MS BABA DIRI: The issue the honourable member from Pader raised is very important. The Minister is saying she should report; to whom can she report? If the very people to whom she would report, the policemen, are corrupt, to whom will she report? Thank you.
 
DR BARYOMUNSI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I also want to seek a small clarification on that matter of defilement. In Kanungu there is a practice, like everywhere, that when a young girl is defiled the Police give a form because they refer the girl to the hospital and this form is supposed to be filled by the medical personnel. However, in our communities the doctors charge between Shs 30,000 and 50,000 from these young girls. Since we have both the Minister for Internal Affairs and that of Health here, I want clarification as to who actually should pay the fees that are demanded by the doctor before this young girl can be examined and a report made to the police to enable them carry out investigations.
 
MR MALINGA: Madam Speaker, there have been many cases of corruption and the Minister has clearly stated that all of us should be involved and work together to fight corruption. However, his is the Ministry of Ethics and Integrity; how does the Ministry of Ethics and Integrity help the country to fight corruption especially if it is identified in another ministry? There has been this case of misuse of funds in the resettlement of IDPs; how is your ministry going to help the people to fight corruption in that ministry?
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I hope the Minister of Internal Affairs got the question from hon. Baba Diri. She was asking that you have said the honourable member for Pader should report, but she reported to the Police who have not helped, now where else can she report? That is what hon. Baba Diri is asking you. Should she now move to you or somewhere else?
 
DR RUHAKANA RUGUNDA: Well, Madam Speaker, the points being raised are significant including the point raised by hon. Baryomunsi. My opinion is that the situation is not as perfect as we would want it to be. It is true that sometimes you may want the police to go and do some work but they may be incapacitated with the vehicle and other possibilities. You may want a doctor to go and examine somebody but he may not have the means.
 
I think at this critical stage of our own development we need cohesion and cooperation. Sometimes it may be prudent that the community helps the professional and technical personnel in performance of their duties, especially in terms of facilitation of transport. So, it depends on individual situations. One cannot have a general answer to the situation  (Interruption)
 
MS EKWAU IBI: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. The common man in Uganda is at a loss. The common man in Uganda is contributing for the construction of teachers houses, they are contributing for the construction of houses for the police - I have cases of two sub-counties: in Kalaki, a parish called Kakure and in Bululu Sub-county, a parish called Ipeneti where the local people are constructing the houses for the policemen. When you come to water, the local man is contributing towards water by buying pipes for the boreholes. When you come to security, some communities contribute for the LCs. When it comes to health, in Kaberamaido for every ten kilometres that the ambulance travels, the locals are charged Shs 40,000 if you are lucky but it is normally Shs 50,000 to 70,000.
 
At this point in time, the Minister of Internal Affairs is seemingly condoning the issue of having the locals contribute before having cases verified. Where is Uganda going? Can the Minister clarify what then the Ministry of Finance is meant to do and where the taxpayers monies go. Thank you.
 
DR RUHAKANA RUGUNDA: Madam Speaker, in as much as we want our kitty - our resource in the Ministry of Finance - to cover our developmental expenditure, the fact of the matter is that we do not have enough to cover everything. It is therefore prudent and actually recommended that where we can, as members of our community we should mobilise resources to help the community move forward to supplement what Government is able to do for the community.
 
MS ALASO: Madam Speaker, I am concerned. I thought that our Government was going to categorically condemn this type of abuse because I used to understand defilement as someone against the government of Uganda. Is it still the case? Is it still criminal that this person who defiles this little girl commits a crime against the government of Uganda?
 
For this person to solicit Shs 5000 and take five days  remember they used to sensitise people on matters of defilement that if a child is defiled, do not tell her to bathe but hurry her to the doctor. I do not know whether that still applies; Dr Chris Baryomunsi you may have to help me. Now, after five days, the old man went looking for Shs 5000 - we are assuming that this girl did not bathe  and in another five days during which the old man went for another Shs 5,000, the evidence is lost. The Government of Uganda then tells the whole nation here, You see, we need to help. Even the little that is there, we are the ones contributing.
 
At least people should be urged to be zealous on these matters, especially matters to do with the children of this nation. Defilement is a terrible thing; it kills the child for good. That child will never study and will be totally traumatised. We would like our Ministry of Internal Affairs to tell the police that on matters of defilement even if there is one litre of fuel they should use it up and we shall appreciate. That is what we are looking for.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, we have now diverted into another debate.
 
DR RUGUNDA: Your Excellency, can I just make a comment. (Applause) You are getting close, Madam Speaker. Well, it seems there is substantial support in the House. (Laughter)
 
Madam Speaker, I have heard the contribution of hon. Alaso; the remark I made was generally about the development of society. It was not a remark to describe how issues of defilement should be handled. On the question of defilement, the position is well known, that Government and the country takes defilement as a very serious crime. Indeed our law books very clearly state that position. If you go to the prisons, perhaps 40 or so percent of the inmates may even be defilement cases waiting to be tried. So we attach a lot of importance on issues of defilement.
 
Every effort must actually be made to urgently ensure that cases of defilement reach the responsible medical officers for appropriate examination. In fact, this is even where the community should come in - in case Government does not have adequate facilities to ensure that such culprits are arrested - and the victims are examined by the doctor as quickly as possible before evidence is destroyed. Therefore, Madam Speaker, the question of defilement is taken very seriously by this Government.
 
MS WINIFRED KIIZA: Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for allowing me to give this information to the Minister concerning corruption and possibly the level at which our officers in the Police are operating.
 
I wish to report to this House that a case of defilement was reported in Kasese District. A police officer based at Bwera Police Station defiled a P5 pupil. The parent raised this issue with the police and the affected officer was transferred to Karusandara Sub-county Police Station where he reported. However, when the parent reached the police station, he was asked to avail transport to the police officers to enable them arrest their colleague. The parent did not hesitate and he brought in money for transport.
 
On realising that the parent had raised the money for transport, the DPC transferred the culprit to another station in Maliba Sub-county. When the parent together with other police officers got to Karusandara to arrest the culprit, he was no longer there. He had been transferred to another station and the parent was once again asked for more money for transport -(Interjection) to take them to Maliba.
 
The man moved around trying to get the money from relatives and he hired a vehicle for the police and they went to Maliba. As we speak now, the culprit has been shifted to Kyabarungira in another sub-county in Kasese, and they want the man to give them more money for transport to Kyabarungira. (Laughter) The one transferring is not bothered but they are bothering the man who reported the case as if it was a crime for him to report to the police.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Who is the one transferring?
 
MS KIIZA: The police officers. Obviously, the DPC is involved. The culprit is the one being transferred from one station to another. When they know that the man has got the money to transport the police officers to effect the arrest, they transfer the culprit. This is an issue which the parent brought up to me and told me that the police officer who is responsible for the defilement is called Muhindo Pallen. The case file number is 407. The issue was reported on the 5th of March this year.
 
It has been on until recently, I think when the final attempt was made on the 24th of May this year and the parent did not have any more money to give to the police. Now he came to me and asked, Honourable, what do I do? Well, I managed to go to the DPCs office but he was not there. I looked for the one who could be responsible for this file, the in-charge, but the in-charge said he was not the one handling that case, so I came back. I just want to report this to you, honourable Minister, and I pray that your office takes charge of this kind of case. I want to thank you.
 
MR WILLIAM NSUBUGA: Madam Speaker, I just want to give information. The honourable Minister has just told us that we are supposed to assist the police, which is true because in my constituency each island is like an LC and when we demand for security, we actually put up shelters. It is good this issue has come before we debate the budget. There is need to allocate enough resources to Police. If we do not, the issue of assisting the police will continue because we do it everyday. You even recall sometime back when this august House contributed money to buy patrols for Kampala -(Interruption)
 
MR ODIT: Hon. William Nsubuga has listened carefully to the revelation from our honourable colleague; what does it mean? Has this matter got to do with the transfer of a criminal from one station to another by an increment in the budget? Is he in order, really? We want to hear from the Minister how he is going to handle this particular case.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, these are two separate things and I hope the Minister has really taken note of the seriousness of this matter because this is collusion.
 
DR RUGUNDA: Well, Madam Speaker, the points raised by the honourable member are serious allegations and actually I am rather surprised that she has been having this vital information since March. This is where I think you as representatives of the people and we in Government should work closely together to ensure that these culprits are pursued and prosecuted. Our ministry is more than ready to closely work with you to ensure that the suspect or suspects concerned are brought to book.
 
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr Fred Ruhindi): Madam Speaker, I stand to give some further assurance to this House because the issue which has been raised by Dr Chris Baryomunsi is very serious. As much as I appreciate the explanation by the Minister of Internal Affairs, given our constraints in terms of resources, when a doctor does an examination this examination becomes part of the evidence for the state against that suspect. Now, if the community mobilises resources like Shs 30,000 to pay for that service, that in itself actually raises many issues as far as transparency and the ends of justice are concerned.
 
In addition to that, recently we passed the Penal Code (Amendment) Bill. I believe that by now that Bill may already be assented to. In that Bill, we disaggregated the offence of defilement; we shall be having the offence of defilement and the offence of aggravated defilement.
 
For the offence of aggravated defilement, in order to sustain a charge against a suspect, one of the ingredients is whether a person is HIV positive. You remember there was a very rigorous debate here whether there should be a mandatory test before the charge, and that is what was passed - that there should be a mandatory test before you can sustain a charge against a suspect. This means that if you go according to the other route, then you may also have to begin mobilising resources to do the tests, which will really compound the issue.
 
I think what we should actually agree, and I think that was raised during the debate by hon. Kiyonga who said that the state should mobilise enough resources to ensure that these medical facilities are availed at no cost and transparently towards meeting the ends of justice. I thought we would actually go that route. Thank you.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think this was an appeal to the Minister of Internal Affairs and I hope he has heard. Can you conclude, please?
 
DR NSABA BUTURO: Madam Speaker, this confirms the complexity of this whole problem of corruption and the need for all of us to play our part. I also want to believe that a Member of Parliament is not an ordinary person; if there are such situations obtaining in our constituencies, we have direct access to ministers and other senior Government officials so matters should be brought to their attention there and then.
 
There was a question from my colleague across who did wonder what happens when a ministry is involved in some malpractice, whether my office does take action or not. I must say that whenever those cases do arise, we have investigative agencies that we call upon to give us information, investigate and report accordingly. Yes, we do get involved from time to time.
 
Madam Speaker, the second issue that was raised had to do with a view that corruption has changed form and therefore, we need to change our current approach. My view is that corruption has not changed form; it is what it has always been. What we need now is to continue strengthening those measures we have already introduced and also introduce new ones, so that we have a critical mass that will definitely change the face of corruption in our country.
 
In this regard, very shortly I will be standing before the honourable members and introducing the whistle blowers legislation. We think that once we have the support of the honourable members, this is going to be a very useful tool that will empower the population in our fight against corruption. I do not think corruption has changed form, I think it is more to do with the way our people are prepared or not prepared to deal or address this issue of corruption. Let me say that in terms of -(Interruption)
 
MS KIIZA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Minister has on several occasions told this House about the issue of whistle blowing. Last year we were on whistle blowing, this year we are on whistle blowing, and I know even next year we shall come here and be on whistle blowing. Can the Minister clarify what is involved in this whistle blowing and for how long we shall continue blowing the whistles with no effect. Thank you.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: What the honourable member is saying is that it has been talked about for a long time; where is the law? When are you actually bringing it? I think that is what the other honourable members also want to know.
 
DR NSABA BUTURO: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the members impatience. However, I want to say that I have also been impatient for a long time but I can now confidently announce to the House that a month ago Cabinet did approve and now there is a Bill, which very shortly will be brought before the House. I am sure that before the end of August we should be here with the Whistle Blowers Bill.
 
I must say that we have been looking at the issues of definition of corruption in a narrow sense. This narrow sense is the one that says that corruption is only abuse of public office for personal gain. This is just an element in the jigsaw of corruption as a general subject. I would want to suggest that there are values where, for example issues of faithfulness, love and honesty are not being given great currency.
 
So, I want to encourage people to look at it in its broader sense. The issue of time mismanagement is an example of corruption, if you like. The issue of lack of patriotism is a matter that we think is a form of corruption. Corruption has many faces. I think it is about time we went beyond looking at it not only in terms of abuse of office for personal gain but also in terms corruption relating to institutions such as a family or marriage with corrupt values.
 
My office is in the process of giving fresh ideas on this entire subject. I will be happy to bring our findings before this august House so that members can also give their contribution.
 
Madam Speaker, the issue concerning GAVI funds is a matter, as you well know, which is before the courts of law. I think the principle of sub judice does not allow me to say much more than that.
 
I would wish to encourage honourable members to believe that if we are to win this issue of corruption, we really must look hard at ourselves. As I did say, we find ourselves talking about others having been involved in corruption scandals when actually on close examination, you find that each one of us does something which really borders on corruption or which actually exacerbates corruption. So, let me say that until we have got that national re-evaluation as I did say, we are not going headway.
 
Finally, I want to say that my office is coming forward with a number of initiatives and the House will have the liberty to debate them with the hope that they will also make additional contributions. We are not resting; we want to continue slogging it out and pushing hard. Therefore, I am encouraging my colleagues to also do the same thing so that together we are able to overcome this problem that we are facing as a society. I thank you, Madam Speaker.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much. Let us have the Leader of Government Business.
 
6.25
THE SECOND DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER/MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE (Mr Henry Kajura): Thank you, Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition and honourable members. On the 24 July this year, the Leader of the Opposition in Parliament made a statement in reply to the His Excellency the Presidents State of the Nation Address.
 
Madam Speaker and honourable members, I wish to first and foremost apologise for the belated publication of the address by the relevant ministry. I pledge to correct the anomaly in this years late submission of His Excellency the Presidents address.
 
Madam Speaker, I recognise the fact that the honourable Leader of the Opposition is a Member of the Parliamentary Commission, which is chaired by the Rt hon. Speaker of Parliament. I recommend that all issues regarding the manner in which the person of the Leader of the Opposition should be handled at formal functions of Parliament be addressed to the Parliamentary Commission.
 
The statement by the Leader of the Opposition raised a number of issues concerning constitutionalism, the rule of law, politics, security and the economy. It also addressed other issues like public service, regional co-operation, CHOGM and many others. As Leader of Government Business in Parliament, I have the honour to formally respond to some of the issues that were raised.
 
I wish to reiterate His Excellency the Presidents message at page 6, where he said that the NRM Government would continue to adhere to constitutionalism and the rule of law. The other issues mentioned, such as the arrest of members of the Opposition who at times are found not on the right side of the law, the siege of the High court and disruption of the legitimate demonstrations, were all answered in the various statements to Parliament by the honourable Minister of Internal Affairs. I will not labour to repeat the explanations given by the Minister and indeed His Excellency the President on pages 5, 6, and 7 of his statement.
 
Over the last two decades, Ugandas economy has been performing well under a stable micro-economic environment as evidenced by a high per capita income and the growth rate of 3.2 per annum. The GDP growth, though below the PEP target of seven percent, has been fairly steadily averaging about six percent.
 
As a result of high broad-based economic growth, poverty has continued to decline since 1992. Between 1992 to 1993 and 1999 to 2000, poverty declined from 66 percent to 35 percent. The recent Uganda National Household Survey results show a continuation of the declining poverty trend, with the poverty rate falling to 31 percent in the year 2006. This is equivalent to a decline in the number of poor people from almost 10 million in 2002/03 to 8.4 million in 2005/06.
 
Consistent with the large decline in poverty in the year 2005/06, inequality went down as evidenced by a decline in the co-efficient from 0.43 in 2002/03 to 0.41 in 2005/06. The 2005/06 Ugandan National Household Survey report attributed the reduction in poverty and inequality to growth in household incomes and improved distribution of this income, and to improved crop prices especially for coffee.
 
According to the World Investment Survey Report 2006 by the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, foreign direct investment to Uganda in the year 2005 increased from US$ 2,222 million to US$ 2,258 million the year after, representing an increase of 16 percent.
 
Madam Speaker and honourable members, there is no way medium sized trans-national corporations from other countries like Kenya, South Africa, Egypt, Europe and China would invest here if they had no confidence in our economy. Our economy is certainly growing and with peace returning to the North, the economic outlook for the future envisages high growth.
 
Government also recognised that over the long-term, sustaining growth at higher levels would require addressing weaknesses that still exist in the infrastructure, especially energy and transport, and also financial intermediation and the high population growth rates. Control measures to address these weaknesses are already being implemented by the government.
 
On the rural development agenda, Ugandas agriculture is becoming increasingly more commercial, shifting to higher value agricultural enterprises and showing continued strong growth in output. There is statistical evidence that there have been an increasing number of peasants marketing part of their agricultural output, indicating that agriculture is increasingly shifting from subsistence to a commercial orientation. There is also evidence that the proportion of total agricultural output being marketed has increased and both formal and informal agricultural exports have increased both in value and volume.
 
On Bonna Bagagawale, the aim of this project is to enable each household to meet its basic needs and to afford basic goods and services for material social comfort by earning an annual income of at least Ushs 20 million. Implementing the prosperity for all programme will follow the following principles:
 
1.  Every household is to have a daily income.
2.  Every household is to have a periodic three to four months income.
3.  Every household is to have a long-term one year plus income.
4.  A household may earn from a group of economic activities.
5.  Households are to be organised into marketing groups or cooperatives for purposes of achieving enough volume to attract buyers and processors.
6.  Households are to be organised into savings and loan groups for their financial intermediation.
7.  Government is to regularly identify and link national, regional and international markets  (Interruption)
 
MS AKIROR: I would like to seek clarification from the Minister, and I would like to thank him for giving way. On Bonna Bagagawale, he says that every household is to have a daily income and every household is to have periodic three to four months income. However, we have also been told that this bonna bagagawale, araibo abarata kere, is going to start with 30 households per sub-county, but we do not have only 30 poor families. In my sub-county, for example, the majority are poor households and the people live on less than US$ 1 a day. How are they going to get to this level? I would be very glad if the Minister could give us this information, because when we get there, the people say that the Minister said this yet there is nothing clear on the ground. Thank you.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, why dont you let the Leader of Government Business respond to the issues raised by the Opposition?
 
MS ALASO: Madam Speaker, I have a procedural concern. I am looking at the response of the Minister and up to the point where he is, I have no complaint but I am concerned about the rest of the document, which has been presented here. The Minister of Energy said the same things yesterday, the Minister of Ethics and Integrity has just said the same things on corruption; is there a way in which this document can be made a little shorter so that we do not have to go through it with every comma and full stop, because we listened to the whole of it yesterday and this evening? I also think that the ministers  (Interruptions)
 
MR WAMBUZI: Madam Speaker, we listened very attentively to the Leader of the Opposition and we did not interrupt at all. So, we are now requesting everybody in the House, including the Opposition members, to let our leader put across his matters. Is hon. Alaso in order to interrupt the Leader of Government Business and to keep interrupting?
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think the Leader of Government Business should be allowed to make his response. What I could add is that if an area has already been touched, you could skip it, like the energy sector and the others. I know that he will identify them.
 
MR KAJURA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I was about to explain the earlier question raised by the honourable member. I have no intention of repeating what the ministers have already ably explained, for example, in the area of power supply, security, education, roads and corruption. So just be patient, I will not keep you too long here. I will only say what I think is important and not yet covered.
 
7.  Government to regularly identify and link national, regional and international markets in order to determine and recommend to them the households within which they should be engaged.
8.  Households to be guided on enterprise selection, taking into account the size or the agro-ecological zones.
9.  Linkages with industries for processing, except where fresh foods are involved. In this regard, model households will be created in each sub-county and will be organised to produce either individually or in groups to avail them with affordable credit and to provide them with market information. With a good mixture of enterprises, households will be able to earn at least Shs 20 million gross per annum.
 
I am now skipping page 6, 7, 8 and _(Interruption)
 
MR ODUMAN: Madam Speaker, the honourable Minister is skipping the section on economy yet there is an issue that I wanted to raise on that.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, the Leader of Government Business is responding to the issues raised by the Leader of the Opposition. Hon. Oduman, you had an opportunity to speak but you did not raise the matter you want to raise now. You will raise it during the debate on the budget.
 
MR ODUMAN: Madam Speaker, the information the Minister has given here tries to recast what is in the budget, but upside down. So I thought if we do not correct it now, it might mislead the House.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. You bring up this matter when we are debating the budget. Honourable Prime Minister, please continue; we are going to page 12.
 
MR KAJURA: The Ministry of Public Service carried out studies to identify human resource development needs in the public service. They include:
 
1.  Training Needs Assessment for Common Cadres in 1998.
2.  Skills Gap Study in 2003.
3.  Leadership Management Needs for Top Senior Management Study in 2004.
 
These studies formed the Public Service Training Policy, which was approved by Cabinet last year. The policy provides for continuous learning and development through various forms of training.
 
The Ministry of Public Service is working in liaison with the National Planning Authority to strength the human resource planning function in the public service. This will enable more effective interface with education and training institutions in the area of human resource planning to ensure the bridging of skill gaps in the public service.
 
As regards pension, Government has addressed the plight of the old pensioners by providing Shs 200 billion in this financial year to cater for the outstanding arrears of pension. Government has also enacted the UPDF Act of 2005, which recognises the services of ex-servicemen who served in former regimes since independence. These people have not had any benefits at all so far. The former education retirement arrangement managed by the Ministry of Education and Sports, which relatively generated lower pension benefits, was also streamlined and consolidated in the Public Service Pension Scheme managed by the Ministry of Public Service.
 
I will now skip the rest of page 13 and move on to CHOGM. The Leader of the Opposition also raised issues about Government hosting CHOGM, especially in respect to hotel accommodation; he asked, Where are the 4,000 bedrooms that are being talked about? I would like to assure the House that there will be more than 4,000 hotel rooms ready for CHOGM. If you turn to page 17, you will see a summary of where the beds are to be found. It is expected that 4,762 beds will be available, thus exceeding the target of 4,000. It will be possible for members to look at the details of the rooms, where they are located and how far they are developed.
 
With these remarks, I wish to assure this honourable house that last year was a year of performance and achievement; indeed the coming one promises greater achievements for this country. In unity we shall be able to work and achieve greater heights. We hope that by this time next year what will be reported here will be the great steps that will have been achieved in the economy and all areas of activity whether it is security, education and other fields for the benefit of all Ugandans. I thank you.
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, I thank the Leader of Government Business, the Leader of the Opposition and all the various parties in the House and those without parties for the contributions made during the debate of the State of the Nation Address. We had already said that those who have not contributed during this debate will be given priority in the general debate on the budget. Therefore, I urge the chief whips to take note.
 
I had indicated that the committees would begin work yesterday and conclude on the 13th so that Parliament can resume on 14th, but we have taken those two days away from the committees so I will adjourn the House to the 16th. We shall resume on 16 August 2007 and not the 14th as we had earlier indicated. I adjourn the house to 16th. I thank you very much -(Interjections)- I am sorry honourable members, I was moving very fast. The question is that thanks of Parliament be recorded for the clear and precise exposition of Government policy contained in the address delivered to Parliament on the state of the nation by the President on 7 June 2007.
 
(Question put and agreed to.)
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The House is adjourned to 16 August 2007. I wish the committees good luck in their work in the next two weeks.
 
(The House rose at 6.51 p.m. and adjourned until Thursday, 16 August 2007 at 2.00 p.m.)