COMMUNICATION FROM THE CHAIR

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, I would like to notify the Members of the Business Committee that we shall have our first meeting on Monday at 11.00 a.m. in the South Committee Room.

Secondly, I have asked the Clerk to issue directions on Private Members Business and Adjournment Motions to facilitate space for urgent issues. He will issue written instructions, which will take effect next week.

MOTION THAT THANKS OF PARLIAMENT BE RECORDED FOR THE CLEAR AND PRECISE EXPOSITION OF GOVERNMENT POLICY CONTAINED IN THE ADDRESS ON THE STATE OF THE NATION BY HIS EXCELLENCY THE PRESIDENT TO THIS PARLIAMENT ON THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2006.

(Debate continued.)

10.40
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR NORTHERN UGANDA RECONSTRUCTION (Mr David Wakikona): Thank you, Madam Speaker. The last time I talked in this Parliament, I was seated on the other side but now I have gone back to the side I belong.

Since the Eighth Parliament started, I have not had chance to speak in this House. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate you and the Speaker for having been re-elected unopposed to your offices. We had good time with you and I know we shall continue enjoying your unbiased judgment while we are deliberating in this House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much.

MR WAKIKONA: Madam Speaker, in addition to my ministry, I also double as a Minister for Karamoja Affairs. In Northern Uganda, the mission will be given in the policy statement as we go to the budget. My main aim here today is to respond to the questions and observations made after the State of the Nation Address by His Excellency the President.

The area I am in charge of is a conflict-infested area. However, as you saw from the State of the Nation Address by the President, he has put a lot of concern in these two areas. Northern Uganda was put as priority No.3, on the priority list after it was revised, and a token of a budget was allocated to rehabilitate that area. It is everybodys concern that Northern Uganda comes back to normal.

I also appreciate that the Leader of the Opposition noted in his speech that there is marked improvement in the security situation in Northern Uganda. He said that with his colleagues from that region, they will cooperate with me and others who are charged with rehabilitating that place to make sure that the people of Northern Uganda are settled like the rest of Ugandans.

He said we should not politicise this matter. Obviously, we are not going to politicise it, but then we are politicians. When we speak, do not think that we are politicising anything. We are just working as politicians. Everybody is committed to supporting the rehabilitation in that part of the country.

When the President appointed me, he indicated that although I am there, he would also be there. You will realise that the President is there, the Prime Minister is there and I am also there. I think we shall do a wonderful job.

Most of the questions raised here were to do with UPDF. The Minister of Defence is better qualified to handle UPDF matters. I will only deal with questions, which are purely to do with the rehabilitation or humanitarian aspect of Northern Uganda.

There was a concern about NUSAF and the Ugshs 18.9 billion. People were wondering whether NUSAF is doing anything in that region. NUSAF is a programme, which is community initiated and is financed by the World Bank. Districts approve these projects from the communities, because the communities themselves decide what they want to do. The money is paid to them through Commercial Banks and for us in the Office of the Prime Minister; we sort of supervise and oversee what they are doing with that money.

I have been to Northern Uganda and Karamoja and noticed that NUSAF has put in a lot of money. It is a revolving fund of $15 million per quarter and depending on how you account for it, you get the release for the next quarter.

In parts of Teso, what NUSAF is doing is clearly seen. If the details are required, I have a full list of communities, which have benefited from NUSAF and the amounts indicated to show that the funds are going to the right people. This is called Disbursement of Funds by the NUSAF programme.

There was this question about Ugshs 18.9 billion in the budget being a cover-up, raised by somebody over there - [Pointing to the Opposition side] He said if it is a cover-up; it should be returned to do other things. This money is not a cover-up. We have already indicated the details of this Ugshs 18.9 billion. In fact, this money is not even enough to cover what we want to do in the Northern Uganda region.

We had estimated that about 1.6 million people are affected and estimated that each household had 10 people. This came to 160,000 households. If you gave iron sheets of the lowest gauge, like gauge 30 at Ugshs 13,000, this would come to about Ugshs 33 billion.

Therefore, you can see that even with one item, still there is a deficiency. Ugshs 18.9 billion will not be misappropriated but it is not enough. However, with partners because in those regions Ugshs 18.9 billion is a commitment on the part of Government. They always want to know what the government of Uganda is doing before they come in. We then say we have put this amount because we are handicapped and they come in to supplement.

As you may be aware, the World Bank under NUSAF is coming in with $15 million per quarter and there is also European Union under Karamoja programme. We have just commissioned projects worth Ugshs 10 billion. The Dutch and others will supplement the Ugshs 18.9 billion to make sure that the people of Northern Uganda are resettled and rehabilitated. However, it is the intention of Government, and the President in particular, that the type of structures when we are thinking of rehabilitating Northern Uganda change from what they are to some permanent structures covered by iron sheets, and that is what we want to do.

There was also a question by hon. Alaso, that the CAO is basically the Chairperson of Disaster Management Committees in the districts. The iron sheets were given to RDCs for safe custody but when we come to real distribution, all the committees will be involved. We shall call the people from these areas to be involved so that the whole process goes on.

For safety, we thought at the moment because some iron sheets are already bought, we thought they should be kept in the offices of the RDCs. When the time comes for the beneficiaries to get them, the whole committee will be involved.

One colleague asked, What happens after NUSAF? We have already designed a programme called Peace Recovery and Development Programme, which covers the whole of Northern Uganda. It has three components namely, the West Nile component, the Karamoja component and the middle Luo area component, including Teso. This programme covers many areas - social, defence and justice. We are going to launch this programme soon and it is being fine-tuned.

Our partners have indicated participation in this and we will make sure that all people benefit from this programme. When this programme is launched, everybody will be invited to witness what we are doing. The European Union is also continuing, especially after the end of the Karamoja programme, which we have just concluded. There is additional funding (Interruption)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, please switch off your telephones. This is the fourth time I hear a telephone ringing this morning. Please switch them off.

MR WAKIKONA: There is also an additional programme to cover Karamoja, especially in the areas of roads because we noticed that the roads are in real bad shape. The European Union is continuing with this programme.

There was also a question of what happens to other parts, which have also been affected by the conflict in the areas of Karamoja and the North. These are areas like Masindi, Mbale, Bugiri and Tororo. These ones, as you can see the definition of Northern Uganda, we shall not go in there to put structures or to settle people. However, we have agreed that the local leaders of these areas compile the list. We shall help them with the resettlement kits, which will last them six months.

We did this because we thought we did not really know where all these people came from. But the local leaders in those areas will be able to identify where the people came from and how we could resettle them.

The Office of the Prime Minister, where I belong, will come in to facilitate them to go back and resettle. However, we shall not go to Masindi, Mbale or Bugiri to put similar structures like those in Northern Uganda.

There is a problem of Karamoja, which we know is more than just the cattle rustling. There is a problem of cultural beliefs and also clashes between the people themselves.

Militarily, the Ministry of Defence will handle the aspect of disarmament. However we feel these programmes, which are coming up with participation of everybody will be very helpful. We shall make sure that Karamoja benefits very greatly from the new project. This will include also the Karamoja Peace Master Plan, which was agreed upon by everybody. This is being implemented now and we feel if everybody participates things will go as planned.

At this juncture, I would like to appeal to the honourable members even that side [Pointing to the Opposition.] and all members who come from those affected areas to work together with me so that we make our people feel that they are Ugandans. We shall rehabilitate, resettle them and make them enjoy this country like the rest of Ugandans. I thank you, Madam Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, we will take only a few clarifications.

DR EPETAIT: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I thank the minister for this elaborate response on the situation in Northern Uganda. I have only three areas where I would like to seek clarification.

One is that the way you have given the narrative of performance of NUSAF sounds very rosy. It has been a very big nightmare for communities to get certain projects approved, to the extent that when the communities apply and keep pacing to the district headquarters following their proposals they get frustrated along the way and abandon the whole exercise.

I would like to know what steps you are taking to help improve on the mechanism for approval because when the local communities have to move to the district 20 to 30 times to have a project approved, they get frustrated along the way and abandon it.

Two, even after a project has been approved, sometimes at the stage of implementation there is delayed disbursement of funds. I do not know where the major problem lies. Really even the districts now get themselves tied. I do not know whether the minister is taking any steps to see how to get the problem of delayed disbursement of funds settled.

Three, in your submission, you were talking about roads in Karamoja. I contend that these projects for NSAFU should really target the local needs. There are certain big projects, which ordinarily should be a preserve of the line ministry.

For instance, I hope you are not talking about using NSAFU funds for constructing central roads because then it will spread so thin. Maybe, I would want to seek clarification when you talk about roads in Karamoja. Which particular roads are you talking about? I thank you.

MR OKUMU: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will also seek three clarifications from the minister. Allow me to congratulate the minister upon taking the office and I hope he will soon be a resident. I also hope that the Prime Minister will facilitate the Minister to adequately be present in the North. The problem has always been that the ministry is not always properly facilitated and they find difficulties even getting fuel to move between Kampala and the North. I hope this time Government will improve this.

I would like to assure the minister that we shall support him in all the government programmes to make sure they all succeed. I also want to assure him that many people have said Ugshs 18 billion is small money. I know it is small money and you know Uganda is still donor dependant. We are also going to put our efforts to support Government in lobbying for more donor funding for Northern Uganda.

I would like to therefore seek the following clarification from the honourable minister. You have talked of a list of beneficiaries of NSAFU but there is a local complaint that some of those could be ghost associations and ghost groups. Would you consider constituting a commission of inquiry into the NSAFU fund? There are many complaints when you go to the ground. Would Government consider constituting an inquiry?

Two, about the issue of PRDP - because this is where we could all be partners and contribute to the government programmes.  I know there have been many stages. There have been many pronouncements at different stages. At a certain stage, they say that a martial plan for the North had already been launched, at another stage they retreated and said it is still in progress. When shall we the stakeholders have a look at the final draft and have an input before it finally comes out? We also need to give the priority needs of our people before Government finally comes up with the final draft. Therefore, we need involvement especially in the PRDP programme.

Lastly, you raised the issue of iron sheets and you rightly said that even the Ugshs 18 billion would not be able to purchase enough. When you look at the Acholi region, the priority would not be iron sheets, but instead cement because the Acholi can use grass thatched huts, which can last over 20 years. What they need is to get a concrete wall and a good floor. Would Government consider reversing this plan?

Even the President himself has a very nice grassed thatched hut in Gulu and it is weather friendly. These iron sheets could be blown off by wind during the dry season. They are not only weather friendly but for us in the North the roofing is not a problem.

Our priority is cement. If we got concrete walls and floors, we would fight fire the way we have done for years and years. Would Government consider taking this into consideration so that there is partnership in identifying priorities for the people? Thank you.

MR ANGIRO: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I thank the honourable minister for his remarks about the problems in Northern Uganda. I would also like to thank His Excellency the President for putting him in charge of Northern Uganda. In the same manner, I thank the Prime Minister for the efforts he put in to assist us in the North.

I have a challenge for the honourable minister. When he challenged us that this time we ensure that at least Northern Uganda comes back to its original status, I say that is impossible. It is impossible because I think he has not done enough research to know what Northern Uganda was on 26 of January 1986. If I could use my village, Okule as an example, we had about 1000 heads of cattle. I personally had 500 and to attain that status within this period will be a real miracle.

Therefore, unless we work together as you have told us and assured us, then that glory will not come back. At the moment, the challenge is down there. This means that if the Karimojong are still our neighbours, those cows, which we are struggling to get, may not even be a sure case. Unless you assure us and Government does everything possible to ensure that rustling is destroyed, then I think your dream will not be true.

The worst still is that my constituency had 12 IDP camps. Now that we are decongesting the camps, I have 16 IDP camps. Honourable minister, I wonder how people living in IDP camps could develop to their original status with this current situation. And yet we are not sure about the peace talks between the government and the LRA chief. Could you assure us about that?

You see, when you tell us, you give us hope, which we cannot attain. When we are talking about the NUSAF that is fine. It is a fine programme but now another challenge is, could you define the Northern Uganda you are talking about?

For time and again when we are talking about Northern Uganda, you find that may be we are talking about it in terms of Luwero Triangle, which did not only cover Luwero District but covers some other parts of this country. If you considered the history of this NUSAF when it was NAP, we realise there were some iron sheets, which were meant for the Northern people. Some of them were found on the roof of some buildings in Mbarara. We have the history and the records. Are you going to stop this kind of corruption?

In addition to that, could you also investigate and find reasons why Dr Opio was in charge of the NAP design? That could give you crews to what you are trying to achieve. Otherwise to me, you are most welcome. We shall cooperate and work with you to ensure that your dream comes true. Thank you very much.

MS BINTU: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I would like the minister to clarify this. When I presented a complaint of the hosting communities, I did not mean that the ministry should put up structures. I wanted to find out from the Minister what deliberate programmes the government has for the hosting community.

Two, you talked about the beneficiaries of the NUSAF and some of these people are in Masindi and some of them applied. I want to know, if they are going to be part of the beneficiaries because they are waiting.

Thirdly, I would beg the minister to lay on Table the list of the beneficiaries. Thank you.

MS OKORIMOE: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I would like to thank the honourable minister for accepting to care take the Karamoja ministry. I just have some comments to make on his highlights on efforts being made to transform Karamoja from its current state.

There is this problem of chronic food insecurity which has been in Karamoja since time immemorial. The first relief items records were received in Karamoja 1950. We are now in 2006. We are still talking of a food deficient Karamoja. When are we getting away from the syndrome of keeping the Karimojong on relief food? The poverty status report of 2005 says poverty in Karamoja is so deep that 80 percent of the people do not meet their basic requirements.

Whereas some parts of our country have permanently specialised on eating delicious dishes, like chicken and chips -(Laughter)- some Karimojong are still living as hunters and gatherers. Honourable minister, it is good you are now on the ground. You will prove that some people in Karamoja are still living as hunters and gatherers. When are we coming up with a permanent solution for Karamoja? Thank you.

MR TERENCE ACHIA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the minister for going to Karamoja as soon as he was given that responsibility. The people of Karamoja are very grateful for having been given this ministry. However, they have some few concerns about the ministry.

I have been the leader of Karamoja for 20 years now. I have been the chairman of Moroto district for quite long and these questions have been coming. They ask, Does the Ministry of Karamoja by its special status have specific development activities which are exclusively meant for them other than those by other line ministries? They would like to know what happened to KDA? Does it still exist or has it died?

The people expressed their happiness to the government for the support got from the line ministries. My sister has just mentioned that 80 per cent of the Karimojong live below the poverty line. There are so many other social economic indicators, which are lacking compared to the natural average.

My proposal to the Minister of Karamoja Affairs, being the coordinator of Karamojas development, I wish he coordinated the development partners especially Government and local governments to have a forum which would address Karamojas key issues. The sustainable (Interruption)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Achia, the matters you are raising might be in the policy statement. I do not know whether you have read it yet, but you are supposed to be seeking clarification out of what he said this morning. The others you will discuss during the committee.

MR ACHIA: I am sorry, Madam Speaker. Maybe I should talk about the Karimojong who are staying in Kampala. There are many Karimojong staying here in Kampala and this is a problem, which I feel the House should address. How do we help these poor people? Thank you.

MR ABURA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is most kind of you to give me the opportunity to seek clarification from the honourable Minister in charge of the North and Karamoja. I would like to thank him for his initiative to have gone to Karamoja and I wish he had informed us so that we could give him a welcome.

I would like to talk about the master plan. It is something that has rung in my ears with a lot of impatience. Honourable minister, what is contained in this master plan? You are saying that Karamoja has got but then there are two sections of your administration. You have the Northern and then Karamoja.

You talked of Ugshs 1.8 billion. Does this cover Karamoja or it is a separate project for the North? On top of that, we are 13 Karimojong Members of Parliament in this House, but there are 300 Karimojong on the streets of Kampala. These are mostly women and children. What measures are you taking, Mr Minister? Thank you very much.

11.15
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR NORTHERN UGANDA (Mr David Wakikona): All this means you were listening very attentively and that is very good for me, because you have raised the questions I thought were hidden.

Hon. Epetait asked about the approval of NUSAF project. There is what we call steering committees at the districts. You know there is decentralisation and the central Government cannot keep on forcing districts to do certain things. We allow them to mature. They handle projects and then submit the list to NUSAF management unit. This list is then submitted to Bank of Uganda here in Kampala. This is when the money is remitted direct to the beneficiaries banks. Normally when they make this project, they indicate the bankers by Bank of Uganda for them to use.

Obviously, if there is a delay in you swinging to the district, we shall also look at that. In the workshop - unfortunately you did not attend, especially the one in Soroti where we found out some weaknesses and we are handling them. You will see an improvement. We have even computerised some of the processes for handling the money at the NUSAF headquarters. Some money delays to come from the bank because of accountability.

For instance, during the workshop in Soroti we gave Gulu Ugshs 15 billion. By the time of the workshop, which hon. Opange attended, they had only used 40 per cent of that money and the rest was lying there idle. We asked, Why dont you use the money? If you do not account for the first batch of $15 million, then the World Bank cannot release the other one.

Therefore, other projects delay because the capacity to observe the money from the beneficiaries is low and this is not a problem on our side. Those who have absorbed this money very fast, I think one of them is Pallisa, even got a bonus of $1.5 million. So, as you go back (Interruption)

MRS BABA DIRI: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. The information I would like to provide to the Minister about why the money is not absorbed is that their staff on the ground are very difficult. They make conditions so hard that people cannot benefit from that money. Thank you.

MR. ONEK: I think one of the reasons Pallisa absorbs the money very fast is because none of them was in the IDP camp.

MR WAKIKONA: You realise that we are dealing with local governments and you elected them. The law says we must deal with them whether they are in IDP camps or not. But even then, if as you say the conditions are difficult, the money from the bank is not for free, even for loans of Parliament here, they make you sign this, sign that, say where you are born and where you live because Washington or the World Bank wants accountability. They want to know that they are giving out money to the people who exist.

The roads, which European Union intends to fund in Karamoja, are community roads. There are very many roads in Karamoja and if you went there you would find very many. Therefore, these are the type of roads we intend I will give you an example. We were coming from Labwo and wanted to cross to Kaabong. We managed to do it. Somewhere when we were about to reach Kotido, there was no bridge. Therefore, we had to go back and rotate another 500 miles to come back to Kotido from Katakwi side. These are the type of roads we are talking about.

I thank hon. Okumu and I think somebody took over the house, which was in Gulu. However, I will soon move there. I met a few of your friends but this was in a hotel. Next time, I will be in the house and I think you will protect me.

About the fuel, I think in the budget, there is enough money for fuel per month. There is Ugshs 16 million per month for fuel, travelling and mobilisation. I think we shall try to use that.

You observed correctly about the Ugshs 18 billion. The stakeholders should look at the final draft of Peace Recovery and Development Plan (PRDP). Obviously, the Office of the Prime Minister is open. They are making final touches here but you are free to come in and contribute.

The Minister of Relief and Disaster Preparedness had called all Members of Parliament from Northern Uganda for a meeting and we suppose such matters could be discussed in such fora so that we include your opinion. This is a joint effort to solve the problem of Northern Uganda.

Concerning the beneficiaries of NUSAF (Interruption)

MR OKUPA: The honourable minister has just said that the Minister for Northern Uganda has invited members for a meeting tomorrow but to the best of our knowledge we have not got that communication. Are you just communicating to us now?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Okupa, you really do not have to deal with that on this Floor.

MR WAKIKONA: That one you know hon. Okupa. I am now a Minister -(Laughter)- we issue directives. You will get the communication. (Laughter)

Hon. Okumu was also concerned that some of these NUSAF funds are not really doing the job. We now have what we call a joint monitoring committee in place. The Chairperson of that committee is the Prime Minister of the Republic of Uganda. With the donor group, we will have to monitor this money closely. There could have been shortcomings as you correctly observed but we are sealing this off. I do not think this will come up in our new region.

About the iron sheets, you said you would prefer cement but I think when the President looked at the solution of iron sheets, he also had information that grass thatched houses are easily burnt by Kony rebels. The idea of iron sheets came in because we thought those would resist the fire when the Kony people attack or any other dry fires come up. Therefore, the idea of iron sheets was actually to resist the structures being destroyed in a very short time. We also considered the climatic conditions there.

11.26
THE PRIME MINISTER (Prof. Apolo Nsibambi): The honourable Members of Parliament made this request from the North to His Excellency the President. Therefore, if you would like to change to make some amendments to the request, it is a matter we could discuss but it may have come a bit late because now the RDCs are now storing the iron sheets.

I will ask my permanent secretary. This is a matter we could discuss, but it was a request from you and from other stakeholders. That is why we always involve you in determining the requirements. As you know I met you in Kabila Club, where you made excellent comments. We now have new Members of Parliament from the North and Teso land. We shall be interfacing with them so that we move together. I am pleased to learn that you will cooperate with us. I thank you.

MR WAKIKONA: Thank you for that information. Hon. Angiro, cattle rustling is being handled and we are also trying to talk to people of Karamoja. The problem of cattle rustling is not between Karamoja neighbours only. Even with in Karamoja itself, there is a problem but it is being handled, as the Ministry of Defence will tell you. They are disarming people and soon, I think it will be minimised.

Some of you asked, What is Northern Uganda? Northern Uganda from the portfolio I hold refers to areas, which were affected by LRA and the problem of cattle rustling. Geographically, it may not be that area but

MR AMURIAT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The minister has talked about cattle rustling in Karamoja. You are the Minister for Karamoja Affairs. There is no doubt about that and I do not doubt your confidence. I do not know whether as a ministry you have analysed the economic and social problems of Karamoja and come out with a master plan for Karamoja.

One thing that is very clear is that Karamoja is an area that is underprivileged. It is under served and all these problems have manifested themselves by the way the Karimajong behave. The largest number of beggars in Kampala for example hails from Karamoja.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Amuriat that is the same problem raised by hon. Abura. Why dont you let the minister finish? He raised it when he said there are 300 of those people roaming around the streets.

MR AMURIAT: Madam Speaker, my question is, what plans are there to revive Karamoja economically?

MR WAKIKONA: I think this question will be added to the other one. Madam Speaker, thank you for drawing this to my good friend Amuriats attention. Let me continue with the way I was proceeding.

I was defining Northern Uganda area responding to hon. Angiros query. Therefore, it is not Lango, Acholi, and West Nile, as we understand it, but all those areas where LRA and cattle rustlers entered or which were affected by the conflict. The role of joint monitoring committee will also look into many of the aspects you raised in your intervention.

Hon. Bintu said she did not ask for structures. Obviously, I did not say you asked for structures and that is why I said we should coordinate with the local communities there to register the people, some of whom are in Masindi. I hear some of these are settlers even if you told them to go back to Northern Uganda, they may not want.

Therefore, we are trying to see if we could register those who voluntarily want to go back and then see how to transport them. However, the identification will depend mainly on the local leaders in the areas affected and the areas we shall return them to.

Hon. Okorimoe talked about food security and it is only that the idea became worse because she said this problem has been there since 1950. I do not think she was born by 1950.

I was recently in Karamoja. There is looming disaster because we went to the fields and found that the crops are drying up. There are some worms, which are eating crops. I contacted the ministries of Agriculture and Disaster Preparedness to find, first of all, what disease is eating up crops. The Minister of Disaster Preparedness will make sure that they handle these as they come. He has come to us in time and this will be handled. [An hon. member rose_]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, let the minister finish. We still have the Minister of Finance and one other ministry.

MR WAKIKONA: What happened to Karamoja Development Agency (KDA)? KDA has not worked for 14 years and I saw this when I went to Karamoja. It failed because of management and other problems. The Karimojong themselves did not accept that KDA was theirs because it was top-bottom. What KDA was trying to do was alien to them. Now, the programme, which took over from KDA under Karamoja programme, reversed the approach and made it bottom-up.

The initiatives now under Karamoja programme managed by Karamoja implementation unit were just a carryover. KDA was financed by European Union and you can see what is on the ground. There is a lot of property and houses left, abandoned in the areas of Karamoja. We are going to get to the council of KDA to make sure that this is wound up officially because it was brought up by an Act of Parliament.

They just abandoned KDA and for 14 years, people are on the payroll getting money. We shall have to solve this. I have already told the Prime Minister about it. Let us move and make sure that this is solved or wound up. Whoever wants to handle liabilities, will handle them and we proceed with the new programme, which is on the ground.

He talked about coordinating development partners. This is a matter, which is being handled by the Prime Minister. He was summoned somewhere by the President and he met the donors. We all feel there is a problem with development partners. Donors should be harmonised. The Prime Minister is handling that in person and he may have more to say about this when he so feels because I do not order him. He could add something to that.

Hon. Abura said Karamoja must be planned. There are so many things that have happened in Karamoja. There have been many interventions in Karamoja but all of them have fallen short of solving the Karamoja problem. Therefore, the new approach now is you and I and everybody else concerned with Karamoja. In fact, even those who are not Ugandans are concerned.

We must come up with a real plan like the one of disarmament which you and your local leaders participated in. You came up with Karamoja Integrated Disarmament and Development Programme, which is now being implemented partly by UPDF, although there are many protests. This will also follow when the Peace Recovery and Development Programme comes up.

There are details of the Karamoja component, which all of us will handle jointly to make sure that at least Karamoja comes to the standards of others. I thank you, Madam Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, all the other issues we shall continue in the general debate and in the committees (Interruption)

MR WAKIKONA: Madam Speaker, sorry, allow me lay on the Table a list of the beneficiaries as demanded.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Those are the NUSAF?

MR WAKIKONA: NUSAF.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Which year, is it from the beginning? Speak into the microphone so that it is recorded in the Hansard.

MR WAKIKONA: This is the latest up to a week ago.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, the document is now here with us.

11.37
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE (Dr Ezra Suruma): Madam Speaker, allow me to respond to the issues related to the Ministry of Finance, Planning and Economic Development, which were raised during deliberations on the State of the Nation Address by His Excellency, the President.

The first issue is bonna bagaggawale concept. This is a vision of prosperity for all. It is not only about micro finance or any other single project but rather a multiplicity of interrelated programmes, which are aimed at getting people out of poverty. It is therefore a set of interrelated actions covering production, input supplies, storage, post harvest handling, value addition, marketing, financing, community infrastructure etcetera.

It entails looking at all opportunities for both self-employment and wage employment. It requires action by both Government and the private sector. It is therefore not a matter of the size of bag one carries to pick the money but rather how one gets integrated into our social economic system and the opportunities, which it, provides.

The second issue is about the strategies for handling rural and urban unemployment. Government is fully aware that provision of employment and income opportunities for the poor is the main avenue for reducing poverty. The budget I read recently cites specific actions namely:

1) Creation of savings and credit cooperatives at every sub county to provide financial services without which a community cannot develop.
2) Marketing cooperatives at every sub county to assist peasants in bulk marketing, storage, standardisation and input supplies.
3) A community information system again at every sub county to record the assets of households and advice households about the income opportunities, which those assets can help to yield to the household.
4) Additionally the numerous infrastructure work such as roads and dams which all offer employment opportunities to our people.
5) This is the most important - employment enhancement opportunity is education. This is being provided free of charge by this Government at both primary and beginning next year at secondary level.
6) Government is promoting investment both domestic and foreign in all sectors to ensure creation of employment opportunities for all Ugandans.

The third issue, which was raised concerns poverty issues that need a radical departure from current policies. The issue is not so much on the change of policy but rather improving the strategies and mechanisms of implementation and delivery. There is a dire absence of viable rural economic institutions to help our people. To this end Government is in the process of designing the rural development strategy and sub county development model to sharpen and increase the focus of instruments of policy implementation for direct impact on the poor and this of course was outlined in the budget.

Madam Speaker, I should say that many of these issues will come up again during the budget discussions and we will be giving as much detail as we can.

The fourth issue was that Government does not know who and where the poor are. Government has information on who and where the poor are, and reference can be made in various reports such as the following:

1) The Poverty Statistics Report, 2005.
2) There is another publication, which maps partners of well being in Uganda, which came out in 2004.

3) The Uganda Bureau of Statistics is currently updating this report, which will offer the following information:
a) Use of more recent data of 2002/2003 compared to 1999 data.
b) Identification of the poor by sub county as opposed to districts and counties.
c) Provision of socio-economic information to explain the observed changes.

Statistical abstract of 2005 by Uganda Bureau of Statistics, which shows the following poverty distribution by region for 2002/2003, shows that national aggregate is 37.7 per cent; rural areas - 41.7 per cent, urban areas - 12.2 per cent, Central - 22.3 per cent, East - 46.0 per cent, West - 31.4 per cent and North - 63.3 per cent.

Madam Speaker, I would like to add that the community information system, which will be implemented nationally will be intended to provide more detail, giving household assets and income of all households in Uganda. That is our goal. But I strongly urge you honourable members to support this exercise and this strategy.

There was a concern about savings and credit cooperatives, organisations and rural finance. The formation and development of circles is based on the plan for the enhancement of rural financial services, which was approved in September 2005. The plan aims at assisting communities to establish financial infrastructures so as to enable them save and become an integral part of the financial sector in Uganda. The key components of the plan include:

(a) Supporting communities that totally have no access to financial services at present so that they can establish a financial infrastructure, that is to say, a circle.
(b) Supporting communities that have a circle, but a circle is not sufficiently offering the service. That is, the institution is weak and so the plan is to revitalise these weak institutions.
(c) Supporting communities that have fairly well developed circle system so that circles can expand and consolidate their activities, helping them to open and operate branches and agencies.

To address the above, some provisions have been made. The modalities for establishment of a circle are available with Uganda Corporative Alliance (UCA) and Ugshs 2 billion has been provided in the current budget for this purpose.

Further more, negotiations are ongoing between the government of Uganda and African Development Bank to reallocate some funds from the Rural Micro-finance support project so that these funds can be used for supporting the circle plan. We have information that this plan is going to be approved.

The provision of micro-finance grant for the expansion for new branches and strengthening of operations within the micro-finance institutions is based on the Micro-finance Outreach Plan (MOP).

MOP is both a plan and a programme. The plan was financed by a grant of Euro 3.4 million from the EU and was intended to enhance coordination and promote local linkages within the micro-finance industry and ensure the expansion of financial services to the underserved areas. In order to achieve these objectives, the plan was supported with a seven-year programme. The Rural Financial Services Programme (RFSP) financed by a loan of $18.54 million from IFAD.

For the provision of micro-finance loans and credit facilities, the responsible institution is Micro-finance Support Center Limited. This is an autonomous Government agency, run by an independent board that provides credit for onward lending. The current Government lending framework credit is available to the participating partner organisation at lower than market interest rate of 13 per cent per year or 1.08 per cent per month for commercial activities, 9 per cent per year or 0.75 per cent per month for agricultural lending.

Lending is provided to micro-finance intermediary agencies, such registered limited companies, NGOs and micro-finance institutions and banks that qualify on the basis of length of operations, profitability, existence of the board, et cetera.

The outstanding funds available for lending up to December 2007, amount to $4.9 million or Ugshs 8.8 billion. This excludes reallocation of Ugshs 3.037 billion to support the implementation of the circle plan referred to above. A full statement on micro-finances will be made in the near future.

Madam Speaker, allow me to stress that we need the full cooperation of members to mobilise people in your areas to participate in this programme. The participation of the population and savings programmes is key to increasing resources available to our people for development.

And indeed if you visit areas where these circles have started, you will see that a tremendous amount of capital has been accumulated in these circles and it is doing a great deal of help to our people instead of waiting for money to come from outside, they are able to help themselves. Therefore, it is important that we take advantage of this activity with Government providing infrastructure, savings and even paying the wages of workers at the beginning and training so that they are able to help themselves.

Government will be coming forward with the programme for strengthening regulation and supervision of these agencies and for creating a deposit guarantee scheme so that in case any of the depositors lose their money because the institution has had problems, then this scheme would be able to provide the depositors with their money.

The next issue is centralisation of micro finance services. Madam Speaker, over the last two years, there has been a concerted effort to harmonise oversight of financial services. This follows the Cabinet decision, read on 17 December 2004, to transfer all the policy oversight of all institutions dealing in financial services that had hitherto been carried out by other ministries; for example, under Ministry of Tourism, Trade and Industry, Agriculture, etcetera, to Ministry of Finance, Planning and Economic Development. We hope that in the near future, legislation will be in place so that we have a centralised oversight of these institutions.

To ensure access to micro finance by all, including People with Disabilities (PWDs), the Ministry of Finance is currently in the process of improving the mechanisms and methods on how micro finance will be accessed by the various categories of people. This will cover broader areas and tap new opportunities, including financing for small enterprises, for artisans and for trade and investment related activities. The ministry will in due course be communicating to the public about the new development towards achieving these schemes and guidelines that people will follow in order to access these programmes.

The next issue concerns expansion of the Parliamentary Chambers. I would like to assure you that I fully associate myself with honourable members on the need for expansion of these Chambers and provision of office accommodation to all honourable members.

Original attempts to provide funding in the budget were overwhelmed by the challenges caused by severe emergencies in other critical sectors, including expanded obligations to the Parliamentary Commission.

Notwithstanding those challenges, I am pleased to say that following extensive consultations with the Rt hon. Prime Minister, the Minister of Works and Transport, the Minister of the Presidency and His Excellency, the President, we have agreed that the sum of Ugshs 24 billion, which we signed for as a grant from the Peoples Republic of China during the visit of His Excellency, the Prime Minister, Wen Jiabao, be used to construct a government office block, a new chamber as well as offices for Government, including Members of Parliament. (Applause)

I have spoken to His Excellency, the Ambassador of the Peoples Republic of China, and he has assured me that the technical experts to liaise with our technical people will arrive in the country within a few weeks to start. (Applause)

I, therefore, would like to appeal to honourable members to support the budget, which has been constructed painfully, to accommodate the most vital national priorities and to set an example to all other sectors of necessity and inevitability if we are to live within our means. Members are aware of the cuts being announced by some development partners in objection to what they call large public administration costs of which the Parliamentary costs are a part.

Arrears and pensions: Government is committed to pay all the verified arrears, including those of war veterans. This is contained in the policy framework whereby Government retirees are given a stock of arrears each fiscal fear once the verification has been completed. Thus the payments are spread over a number of fiscal years, and in 2006/2007 fiscal year, that is the current one, the provisions we have made are Ugshs 148 billion for all arrears, of which pension arrears are Ugshs 51.876 billion.

Universal Primary Education (UPE) releases to Mbale include, Bungokho County North. Every county, including Bungokho, received UPE releases and the following table provides the funds that have so far been released to the whole of Mbale district in fiscal year 2005/2006.

UPE capitation grant where performance was 100 per cent, 100 per cent for health training and 100 per cent for secondary capitation grant and SFG was 93 per cent; salary releases, 84 per cent for primary school teachers, 85 percent for secondary school teachers, and 80 per cent for Tertiary teachers.

I am having a meeting tomorrow with the ministers of Education and Health and Public Service to see how we can iron out the problems of the payroll. The numbers keep changing and we are having a lot of difficulty in keeping up with the numbers and having to issue supplementaries now and again. So, there is definitely a problem that needs to be worked out so that we can smooth out the payroll and reduce the variations that we are currently encountering.

Please note that the overall release performance for the development conditionality for national transfers to local Government for fiscal year 2005/2006 was 93 per cent due to cash limits. This explains 93 per cent release performance also on SFG. Wage grants are performing at such levels, averaging 83 per cent because releases are based on the staff on payroll.

Allocation of school facilities grant for 2006/2007 to few districts in Western Uganda; according to communication from Ministry of Education, Cabinet directed that SFG be allocated to fewer districts that is only 10 in the whole country, which have poor pupil-classroom ratio. However, this would have further disadvantaged, the sparsely populated areas of the cattle corridor where children walk over eight kilometers to school as opposed to the recommended maximum distance of four kilometers. Accordingly, SFG in fiscal year 2006/2007 was allocated to 28 districts based on two major parameters:

One, districts under the cattle corridor where children walk over seven kilometers to school. Under this parameter, eight districts were considered, namely, Sembabule, Mpigi, Gomba County, Nakapiripirit, Kaabong, Kotido, Kiruhura, Moroto and Nakasongola.

The other parameter was the pupil-classroom ratio. The allocation for 20 other districts was based on pupil-classroom ratio. The districts are Apac, Arua, Iganga, Kitgum, Mayuge, Mbale, Pader, Pallisa, Tororo, Yumbe, Butaleja, Koboko, Kaliro, Amolatar, Manafwa, Amuria, Oyam, Namutamba, Buliisa and Maracha, Terego.

Releases for the Foot and Mouth Disease: The requisition for the Ministry of Agriculture, Animal Industry and Fisheries was received and Ugshs 3.5 billion has been released to take care of this problem.

Finances for the Jinja-Bugiri Road: Madam Speaker, the required money of Ugshs 110.5 billion is now available following signature with the new contractor and the European Union. This was done two weeks ago. The money is with the ministry and the contract Rainer Road Construction Company Limited and Senitra Limited joint venture has already begun the mobilization on the ground to rehabilitation of 72.8 kilometers road of which 11.75 kilometers should have commenced on 1 July 2006 and will last for 30 months.

Availability of teachers salaries: The money is indeed available as an additional Ugshs 89 billion was provided in the current budget for this purpose. There was some doubt on whether this money was available. I want to assure you that the money is available and an additional Ugshs 89 billion has been provided.

Finally, the issue of Government continuing to borrow despite debt forgiveness: Madam Speaker, all borrowing is approved by this august House. The Minister cannot borrow without approval of Parliament. Any future borrowing by Government will be carefully examined by my ministry and brought to this august House for approval, as the law requires.

Debt forgiveness by the multi-lateral institutions has helped to reduce the strain on Government resources. The current stock of debt was $4.4 billion after deducting the IMF portion of forgiveness. Now we have received official communication from the World Bank forgiving us $3.7 billion. I have not yet seen the communication from African Development Bank but they have made their commitment as well.

So, this means that our debt obligation is considerably reduced to less than $1 billion. Members should note that the cut off date for these debts is December 2003. For the World Bank, the debt, which was incurred after that debt, we will have to pay; it remains in our books.

Madam Speaker, one moment, there is another item I will mention afterwards, which concerns the clearance of the paper for Gender. We have released this clearance so the paper should be coming to Parliament in the near future (Interruption)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The protocol?

MR SURUMA: For the Gender Paper Equal Opportunities Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The financial obligations have been cleared?

MR SURUMA: Yes, we have cleared it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you.

MR SURUMA: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, honourable members, first, I must thank the Minister of Finance for quickly responding to our reasonable requests for a Chamber and for office accommodation -(Applause)-We look forward to its earliest implementation.

Now, honourable members, for the next three months, the focus will be on budgetary issues. I am proposing that we do not take clarifications now because on Tuesday, we are kicking off again the general debate on the budget and all these matters will be there for the debate for the committee for the next three months. So, let us not go into it if you do not mind.

Let me ask the Leader of the Opposition; he said he had something to say about what was said in this House and then the Third Deputy Prime Minister and then the Prime Minister and we close with the Mover of the Motion.

12.05
THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (Prof. Ogenga Latigo): Thank you, Madam Speaker for giving me this opportunity. I stood on the Floor and made a statement in reply to the Presidents State of the Nation Address. Subsequent to that, I did not participate in the debate and it is only legitimate that I make my final submission now.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: As a member of Agago?

PROF. LATIGO: As the Leader of the Opposition, because the debate is over, I would like to start by, first of all, thanking you very much for the way you conducted business during this debate -(Applause)- You demonstrated the commitment that embarrasses some of us into sitting the House even if we had desired to do other things and you should continue embarrassing all of us so that the attendance in the House is always good.

You also demonstrated the stamina that all of us who have chosen to be Members of Parliament must put into the business of being Members of Parliament if this Eighth Parliament will be able to acquaint itself in the eyes of Ugandans.

I would also like to congratulate the new Members many of whom participated in this House for the first time. I know that it is always a new challenge and circumstances can be intimidating but most of us acquitted ourselves.

I would like, however, also to take an opportunity to express apologies because this was the first time that all of us were playing our different roles. There could have been which you would not realise- there could have been mistakes that we would ordinarily make and those occurred and I believe that this is on both sides of the House.

I have three issues to counter the ministers response to my statement, and one general thing which I have been agonizing over as to whether I should talk about it in these concluding remarks which is important for me to speak on given the circumstance.

A number of ministers made specific responses to what I stated in my statement in reply. I thank them for recognising the concerns that we expressed. I thank them for supporting us where we differed with Government.

But I particularly thank those who bow with us even when they thought we were not agreeing with them and reinstated their positions. There are, however, other ministers who chose either through omission or commission not to respond, and I would like to assume that they agree with us and let the matter rest to that.

Three ministers talked specific things that I thought we should mention. The Minister for Disaster Preparedness did make reference to the challenges that face the country in regard to the problems of Northern Uganda. He recognised our position and our commitment, which was again reinstated by some of our members to working together to end this conflict and moving forward.

I wish however, to just retaliate, and fortunately the Minister who is specifically in charge of Northern reconstruction gave that assurance because after the Ministers statement some of our members were concerned that there was no clear commitment to involving everybody in the process. But we got this assurance and we accept that and we are ready to work together on that.

There was one method that straddled the Minister and the Ministry of Internal Affairs and this is the matter of the peace process that is currently going on. I would like to state that as a member of the Acholi Parliamentary Group, we met yesterday and resolved that we should formerly write to the Prime Minister to let Government know that we join them in the process of seeking for peace that is going on.

Our own concern is that as people who have to explain to our people what is going on, it would be very good if we are briefed at whatever level of what is going on and if Government sees fit, even to find ways of involving us because it reassures our people that this process is not a process that is on maybe politically since most of our members are actually in the opposition. But that is a national process that we all want to participate in.

And, therefore, we would be very glad Rt hon. Prime Minister, if the level that you choose, information is given to us of what goes on so that we do not become speculators and yet we have to provide correct information and leadership to our people.

The other matter which I thought is of importance was raised by the Minister for Energy. I thank you, hon. Speaker coming from Busoga for interpreting the statement of the Minister on the matter of FDC sabotaging the dam; and we take your interpretation in good faith. (Laughter).

The matter that was not addressed by us in my statement, but which came out and we thought we should say something on, is the matter of the current quest to exploit our oil potential. The Minister said that he will come out with the substantive statement on the matter. And it is our hope that when the Minister comes out with that statement, it will not just be a statement of how far we have gone with the exploration process, what the potentials are, et cetera. Because even the little information that has come out in public particularly seeing His Excellency the President holding a container and that we believe contained the crude oil with the exploration leaders, creates a lot of excitement. And we are naturally both worried and enlightened.

Madam Speaker, we are worried because of the experiences of oil in many other parts of Africa. We are worried seeing what happened to Nigeria. As a young student in school, we used to read about the geography of Nigeria. Nigeria was with Uganda, Ghana and Malaysia, one of the foremost developing agricultural countries. When oil came, agriculture collapsed.

And right now, Nigeria is the biggest importer of rice in the world and yet they have the capacity to produce all the rice that they have. And as somebody who has a very sound background on agriculture, I know that agriculture is the field that demands patience and strenuous commitment, physical and mental.

A mention about oil is extremely worrying us and we believe that Government must immediately think about the implication of Uganda striking oil on the development on the agricultural sector and mitigating measures we must put in place to ensure that after oil, we do not become just importers of food where we have the potential to feed much of central Africa.

The other matter related to oil is the question of corruption. The minister concerned yesterday was on the Floor and his contribution created uncertainty as to whether if without oil, we are faced with the challenge of corruption now, the kind of challenge that we will face with the oil, money slipping through the fingers of Ministry of Finance and being available for people to partake off.

Therefore, we would also want when the minister comes with their statement to give us an indication of what Government plans to put in place to address the potential consequence to the matter of corruption with Uganda striking oil.

Madam Speaker, I was in Nigeria during my university days and one of the most striking things as you land in Lagos airport, the number of rotting private jets. In fact, one or two runways eventually had to be blocked because they were just full of jets that after the oil boom and the bus came in, nobody could manage them. And then as you drive to the countryside, you would see storage buildings incomplete with wild plants climbing over; and those are resources that Nigeria just threw down the drain.

We could also remember the story of the oil minister who was almost smuggled from London and that the story was because this is a Nigerian Party with a number of rolls that will be parking or heading to that party place.

We get worried and I hope that the minister will come prepared for this. But also the discovery of oil will generate huge potential for this country. We proposed in our party platform to create, if we strike oil, a national petroleum fund so that the money comes and it is where we can soberly think about what to do.

So, I imagine that Government should consider focusing our investment because this oil is fined, after sometime it will go. But our human resources and the country that we live in will remain.

And, therefore, we would want indications from Government on how the plan to address the problem of making investment from the oil sustainable in terms of human resource development, infrastructure and orderly urbanisation because many of our people with the oil will run away from the villages. We are going to have huge urban questions that we must think about. So, these were some of the things that came to our mind and we do hope that when the minister comes with his statement, he will address them.

Lastly, Madam Speaker, this is a matter that I beg the indulgence of everybody because I feel that it is important that I make a statement on it for the good of all of us.

When we made our statement, there were responses from the Floor. Two particular responses drew my attention and one caused concern. One response was from an honourable member for Kibaale, Frank Tumwebaze, but I could understand that because his response was knee-jerk reaction to what was said.

I also keenly watched my honourable Leader of Government Business, he is a technocratic Prime Minister, and I think the political language in that statement also seemed to upset him at that time.

But the most important reaction was from the honourable Member for Ruhama County, hon. Janet Museveni who is also our First Lady. She got up and said that when I made the statement in the beginning, the way I started made her say, Thank God, I think we have arrived. And then as the statement progressed, she was gravely disappointed and I could see the disappointment on her face.

Before I say what I want to say, I just want to share my own experience when I came to Parliament. I was from the academic field and worst still an insect scientist -(Laughter)- where I could not argue as to whether the insects have six legs or more because the fact will be that they are six legs. And when I came here, I used to sit up there. [Hon. Members: Come back] - I will be there, but in front in 2011. (Laughter)

Madam Speaker, we came to Parliament and the first time I made my formal statement on the Floor of Parliament was on the 17th August. I could have spoken on the first day, because there was nothing limiting, I had knowledge, I had the experience; I had everything but I was exceedingly frustrated with what I saw in Parliament.

I had the mindset of an academician and sitting here, getting what hon. Aggrey Awori was saying, I thought we were just wasting our time. And many times, I asked myself, what brought me here. But after sometime, I became part of Parliament -(Laughter)- And therefore, I accepted even things that ordinarily looked silly to those who are not in Parliament as part of the ways of Parliament. And, therefore, when I made my statement, it was in the best practice that I could master with the little experience I have as Leader of Opposition in doing that job.

But I also wanted as there arose the level of debate to challenge and provoke. I know that when the honourable Member for Ruhama got up, she was very well intentioned and I accept everything else that she said except that one of the things bothered me. She said, We have come very far. Now, this is normally political talk that we go through when we are debating with our colleagues outside there and as a UPC or something, we want to say, You have failed and then they will tell you, We have come from far. In other words, it puts you off.

I thought it would be important for me to bring this on the Floor because the honourable Member for Ruhama is a special Member of Parliament. As much as she represents the people of Ruhama, she is also the First Lady; and by her age, she is much older than most of us. Therefore, we look to her for arbitration where we are strained and tearing each other apart for moderation and counsel.

There are things that my colleagues on the other side may not be able to say. But when you are seated here, you see what is happening there very well -(Laughter)- I can assure you that sometimes I see my honourable colleagues on the other side contributing and looking worriedly on the side of the honourable member. One time I said here that I am very frank and honest in this Parliament and it is on record. That is how I have been and I am saying this because of that.

Therefore, Madam Speaker, I want to end. I brought this with a lot of distress because of the respect I have for the honourable First Lady and I do hope that with time, when we indulge in the politics that we must indulge in on the Floor of this House, she will appreciate that in the opposition, that is the role we have to play.

In the Opposition, that is the language that we sometimes have to use even in Government and you will hear this. This is how we put our case because you see we are like children who are outside. The child in the house demands for food differently from the child outside. The child outside has to knock the door before demanding for food and therefore, we have to take that approach, mom. It is just because we are on this other side. Thank you very much.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much. I am sure that with time, we shall learn to accommodate one another. But so far, we are doing reasonably well. Can I invite the Rt. hon. third Deputy Prime Minister, the Minister of Information and National Guidance?

12.25
THE THIRD DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER/MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND NATIONAL GUIDANCE (Mr Kirunda Kivejinja): Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is good that I am talking after the Leader of Opposition has given such a passionate plea for a joint enterprise in spearheading our country forward. He has made my new portfolio very clear and he has given me guidance. (Applause)

Now, there are a few questions that were answered or were asked or were raised in the debate and you know I have got two departments: One is the Ministry of Information, which has been in existence, and the other National Guidance for, which I have yet to bring a policy statement so that you know exactly the role of this national guidance.

I will, first of all, go to what we are used to. There are some questions, which were raised specifically on the information side and which I thought required written questions because in Parliament we normally devote sometime when you have to be able to answer certain questions from ministries and you give the minister time so that he comes with researched information, which you can be able to rely upon. The information you raise on the Floor, as on the spur of the moment normally has no chance to interpret itself into action by Government.

So, on that one, I would rather give my guidance that if you want to influence issues in form of resolutions, try to give the people who are entrusted to run the country specific questions in writing and there is on our Order Paper and in our Rules of Procedure, a time given to that. That is the time when you would be able to want far reaching institutions, because Parliament is not normally one of the fora of political agitation, but just of linking up so that we are able to influence the formation of laws and passing of resolutions for which you should claim that I had a hand in.

Now, with that background, this question for example, we need to respond on one thing that there was concern that the local languages and especially Butebo had been closed and therefore, there is going to be a change in the Ministry of Information regarding the languages that have been broadcast for all these years since independence and you may see obliteration of some languages.

I have consulted Radio Uganda and Uganda Television came to an end, and instead were reincarnated into the Uganda Broadcasting Corporation. This one now handles both as an independent body but when it is independent, it is independent in action but we will have to carry the basic mission of making sure that it informs the Ugandans in all the languages. Their main task would be to inform the Ugandans what Government does, what is happening in the country, without this commercialisation. That is part of its mission.

Butebo was part of these changes, there have been a lot of changes and apparently whenever there are changes, I am around there. You know that when that move was done, all our implements are being transferred to these premises around the corner and the other one was given away by Government to develop.

So, by the time I was appointed a minister, even my staff had nowhere to sit. I have been trying to resettle them and now they are on the sixth floor in the Prime Ministers Office. So, we are now set to handle all matters of the ministry.

I want to assure the House that there is no danger; the languages, which have been for along time on air on Radio Uganda or TV are under table. There was some problems because when they changed management, we had two types of staff. Those who were permanent and pensionable and one of the conditions was that all those who were affected, not even affected but whoever was engaged under those rules had to be paid and then a new contract entered into and that was done. But meanwhile, they had to retain some people pending the proper recruitment for the new set up. We are in the transition and when you hear something, you can contact us. This is a transition and we want to manage it successfully. I think that is the main question in terms of radio.

The other points, which were raised, were mainly political and could fall correctly under guidance. Hon. Okello-Okello was worried about national unity. Definitely, it should be the worry of everybody. He even mentioned that there seems to be two classes between the North and the South. I think that is a challenge to all of us. The situation in which we are is a result of the history in which we have passed and it is a challenge that we must make sure the country moves together. I think there is no deliberate policy on this side to say that anything will be done to make the country two.

Then my friend, hon. Fungaroo also was worried of the gap between the North and other areas and that there is prejudice against the Northerners. Therefore, we are likely to have two countries and too many systems. I think these are concerns that we need to be together as a nation. You raised this question and I am sure they have been noted and in my capacity as a national guider, together with all the stakeholders, we should be able to develop a common good that will bind us regardless of where each one emanates.

Now, Birahwa also raised a question of national interest and that there will be the first party and then the second party, which will cause problems. But the ministers who have explained here about the policies have told you that the management of society by arrangement is detected by the one who wins the votes of the country and they must be given the chance to ensure - because they are elected on a manifesto and your work is to make sure that what they promised is fulfilled. If we fail, that will be your gain.

I think you do not need to worry about that, and on the other side it is natural that we shall have to strongly ensure that we are there. Once we are there, it means that we shall continue to be delivering and if we are delivering that is okay. The people must have the benefit of what they ask for.

Now, hon. Mabikke indicated that actually the Presidents address lacked vision. I just want to inform hon. Mabikke and the House that this was a State of the Nation Address. As Members of the new Parliament, you had to be told how the nation stands and that was a sense of the Presidents address. He told you how the country stands politically, socially, security wise so that you are brought on board to understand the country for which you are here to legislate for.

It was not so much a paper to be able to articulate the vision of the country because the vision of the country must be a common and a shared vision. The positions of Government and the opposition only defer on what method should be used to reach that vision. I think it is my duty to do my job in my new assignment to articulate that national vision so that we all understand. That one is going to be my work to articulate that national vision and be able to propagate the common good.

I think with those remarks, I take this opportunity, being my maiden speech in my new assignment, to congratulate all of you who have been able to come to this House to join me in the job I started more than forty years ago. It is my job and I welcome you. With the new people who are coming, you will definitely be able to advance. You will be able to make me feel very happy and die knowing I am handing over to a new young group for whom I have spent part of my life making sure that Uganda is better. We shall continue to be together.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: There was something small, hon. Euku, wanted to know from you.

MR WOPUWA: Madam Speaker, I just beg a bit of indulgence on the issue of languages. The Prime Minister tried to explain but maybe I did not pick it properly. Outside there, people would like to know whether Eastern languages are being removed from UBC, or they are going to be there. We have been having programmes; Radio UBC is the only one that reaches all parts of the country. Are they there or they are going away?

Two, Butebo - when hon. Basoga Nsadu died and the new minister came, for some time, FM in Kampala was switched off and then Butebo disappeared. Now, when the new minister also comes in, Butebo is also almost the vivid impression people have in the village is that Butebo is also going. We really want to be assured because we no longer have the weekly briefings we used to have to know what is happening in Lumasaba, Sabiny and these small tribes, which do not have that big population to bargain boldly.

MR SERUNJOGI: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Mine is just a clarification from the hon. Minister. During my comments on the State of Address to the Nation, I brought to the attention of the hon. Minister the fact that the entire district of Kiboga is in a signal shadow for both radio and television.

I realise the Minister has said that written questions could be the most appropriate ones. But I think Kiboga may not be the only one being 40 years in independence and we totally depend on private radios for information. I think something needs to be addressed, at least something to be said at this stage. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

MRS MUSEVENI: Madam Speaker and hon. Minister of Information and colleagues, please allow me to just make a brief observation about UBC.

The television channel is a major national TV channel; our television now has a few other private channels as all of you know. But my concern here is that this channel, which is also watched in many rural towns these days should really take into account that the programmes on this channel should be family friendly and culture friendly.

We have many foreign programmes that are aired on UBC and our rural towns still do not have other channels and mainly watch the only television channel which they have, which is UBC. If it airs these foreign programmes, pornographic, they are dangerous to our society. The Ministry of Information should look into this and see whether we cannot have programmes that are specifically family friendly considering that the children do watch these programmes.

It is also important to consider languages because there are some times German programmes and French programmes and why not some of our language programmes if they are available? Thank you.

DR EPETAIT: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Mine is also an inquiry over the performance of UBC TV, especially for the Eastern region. The signals of UBC TV in all the districts of Teso and Karamoja are terribly poor; in fact it is not there. We know that originally, we had a television booster in Soroti. For the last 20 years, it is not working. How does the Minister intend to improve on reception of UBC TV for that side of the country? Thank you.

MR EBONG: Madam Speaker, if we are to talk about absolute empowerment for people in Northern Uganda, then access to national media like Uganda Broadcasting Corporation is critical.

The signal of UBC in Northern Uganda is felt within very few areas and for the last 20 years or so, Northern Uganda is definitely isolated from being part of Uganda in terms of access to international and national media. I do not know what commitment the Minister can really make to assure the people of Northern Uganda that for once they are going to be part and parcel of this country? Thank you.

MR OGWEL-LOOTE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just want to add on the UBC issue. First of all, I would like to appreciate the transmission of UBC in terms of TV; at least it has improved except the programmes that have been put there.

As the hon. Member for Ruhama has said, there should be a message to pass to the people. What message are you passing to Ugandans, the young people, when you see this entertainment that does not teach?

I like sometimes these programmes on WBS where you find movies from Nigeria, there are a lot of lessons especially on Top TV that enrich the family, that build the future and show the dangers of some parts of our culture. So, UBC should portray that rich culture of Uganda and an African.

We are enriching our communities and societies with a foreign culture that does not build our people. I think that is now the political responsibility of the Minister to ensure even politically have to enrich Ugandans of this democracy because UBC must really go to inform and to teach the people of Uganda. But on the whole it has improved.

Secondly, while it has improved, sometimes it disturbs me when they say the great network and then you only see about five channels telecast to the people of Uganda who are able to watch within the perimeters of Kampala. In fact it is not clear in Mbale; it is completely dark out in Karamoja. In fact we enjoy Radio Kenya because it is the one that is most clear and it is in Swahili. So, you can imagine that you are not cutting across your country.

The former minister - these things were articulated and he said it will cover the greater Uganda. Let it be a greater Uganda, and in fact if you rehabilitate the one of Soroti - was it Red channel - if you rehabilitate that station, Karamoja will be well covered in UBC either on radio or TV. It would be wonderful.

The day there is a football match, it is the business community which may have only one or three TVs while people fight to get in there. You can see the demand of what the people want to get from UBC. Karamoja should not continue being a political show but let it be part of the nation and be educated too. Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, this was just clarification from his statement, but now you are going to submissions.

MR KIYINGI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. You guided us that we are going to have detailed debate on the policy positions of the ministries when we consider the policy statement and I got the impression that we are actually winding up the debate. But what is happening now is that we are going back to the debate, which you guided us against. I would want to be guided as to what we are going to do next. Can we not follow what you guided on and wind up this debate?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: We are of course winding up but as you will appreciate, many Members are new. When you say, Ask for clarification, they submit. I think let us give each other time to learn.

MR DOMBO: I thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I am a regular visitor to Radio Uganda, but when you go to Radio Uganda, the state of the affairs in the studios, in the infrastructure, is extremely appalling. At one time His Excellency the President was hosted in the studios of Radio Uganda and in UBC studios - this is a nation and this is the property of a nation that would reflect the image of what actually the nation is. I want to find out from the honourable minister whether the short time he has been in the office, he has had an opportunity to visit the studios of UBC and whether, if he has or he has not, he intends to uplift the image of those studios so that they will reflect the character of our nation. I thank you very much.

12.51
THE THIRD DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER/MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND NATIONAL GUIDANCE (Mr Kirunda Kivejinja): Thank you very much, hon. Deputy Speaker. I think the response and enthusiasm shown by Members actually are indications that I have got a lot of allies in making sure that this sector will be well handled and well supported.

First of all, I want to reiterate that Butebo and all languages in Uganda will continue to be broadcast. (Applause) A nation is like a struggle; there is nobody you can minimise. What you may minimise as small may turn out to be the greatest problem. So, it is not the intention of the Ministry to see that other languages are wiped out or that we think they are insignificant.

An honourable member raised the question that Kiboga is completely in the signals problem; the same thing with the East and also in Northern Uganda. One of the things which I said, which prompted the winding up of the old system to the new one was because the other system was old and we needed to expand and modernise it.

In the programme of expansion and modernisation, those problems are supposed to be addressed; they are part of the work plan. It is a question of me supervising to show exactly what is happening. That was the same thing with our telecommunications. We had 28 lines by 1994 but with a good communication policy, which was brought to this Parliament - I think hon. Kawanga was here. Moving by that we are now with a million telephone lines and we have not done anything. So that area with modernisation, I think we should be able to overcome that one.

The hon. Member for Ruhama has actually more-or-less brought what is the role of the ministry and national guidance. We intend to ensure that programmes on the UBC differ from others and there is more national content, more family friendly, cultural friendly messages, and that we are able to deliver the national message. The national message includes everybody; propagation of the common good. But now because in the short term these programmes need to be developed, the new administration of UBC had to be able to fill up gaps and, therefore, that is why they had to get access to some of the foreign sources of programmes. But we are going to move away from that side.

The message will be passed to the people and it will portray the culture. I think that is exactly what your mouth is supposed to do. If it cannot be able to talk for you or to taste the food you enjoy, then it is no longer your mouth. So definitely, we shall make sure that what is broadcast both on radio and on the television. UBC will be palatable to the Ugandan community.

I am pleased that my colleague from Karamoja says that he listens - the signals in Kenya are sharper than ours. I have already explained it is because we have not developed on our side. But on the other hand, I think he is already on the fast track of the East African Federation so that we integrate all our resources and we should be able to get there. You will see the advantages of being together if you will be able to do that.

Hon. Dombo is asking whether I have been to the studios. I said I am a living political fossil of this Uganda. I was it when it was first established, I have also been a Minister when it was in the most dilapidated conditions and history has preserved me to be able to come back and bring it up so that I hand it to you, the new generation, in a new form as indeed I am doing now. Thank you very much.

12.55
THE PRIME MINISTER (Prof. Apolo Nsibambi): Madam Speaker, I have a short statement, which will be circulated to all Members of Parliament. I have made it right now; it is being circulated.

Let me preface my remarks by thanking you for your excellent comments and in particular I would like to begin with those comments made by hon. Prof. Latigo, the Leader of the Opposition in Parliament, and not outside Parliament.

First of all, the issue of the presence of hon. Janet Museveni, I think you are right to deal with that issue because you hear people making all sorts of statements. Some people are curious, others are politically naughty, so it is a learning process. When you have the First Lady in Parliament, it is a learning process on our part and on her part. But what I would say is that she is here representing Ruhama County and she is a Member of Parliament and therefore she is entitled to make her statements as a Member of Parliament. In case you are aggrieved by her statements, you are free to meet her and sort out the differences.

I remember occasionally I used to be irritated by what Prof. Latigo used to say here in Parliament. One day when we got out I said, Are you a professor? How can you make such a statement? You have ceased being professional. So, we would sort out our differences or harmonise our positions; and this happens a lot. As you know, I taught many people here. I feel grey-haired; and sometimes some of my former students would come here and attack me. Then I would go and talk to them and they said, That was for the consumption of my constituency, but I have very high regard for you my professor. So, this is a learning process. And also as you know I am technocratic, although of course I was elected as LC I Chairperson at Makerere. I have not gone through the other processes and I stand and defeat hon. Prof. Latigo, but I regard myself as a student of practical politics; I am always willing to learn from you. So this is a learning process when you have a First Lady here. But let us say she is a Member of Parliament and let us treat her just like that.

With regard to the issue of involving basically I do not think that it is the Acholi Parliamentary Caucus, but I think involving Members of Parliament in the peace process. I shall be exploring the modalities of doing it. It is very important to find modalities so that you also assist us in actually handling the process.

But as you know, when people are involved in this peace process - and I was the chairperson of negotiating for Bugandas ebyaffe with President Museveni, I would not say a lot to the people because when you are still negotiating, if you divulge any information, it can cause problems and positions may rigidify. Therefore, you must keep some information confidential; so, there is that problem. On the one hand you must access the information while on the other you must keep it confidential; it is a delicate matter. But I shall work out the modalities of involving not only Cabinet in the process but also Members of Parliament and the country at large because sometimes wrong statements are made in many places.

On the issue of utilising the money from oil, again that is an excellent point. The Minister of Energy promised to come to Parliament and deal with that matter. It is a very important issue and we should learn from the experiences of other countries so that we do not repeat their mistakes. There are some people who do not learn from history, but we should learn from history.

With those few remarks, I intend to move quickly and read this short statement and I know you are privy to it.

Madam Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament, on 08 June 2006, His Excellency the President, pursuant to Article 101 of the Constitution, delivered to this Parliament the Address on the State of the Nation. This was indeed the first address on the state of the nation since July 2005 when the country transited from the Movement to the multi-party political system. Before I respond to issues raised by hon. Members of Parliament, I wish to state that I will not repeat the responses, which have been given by my colleagues, although occasionally I shall be clarifying some of the statements made.

I wish to preface my remarks by thanking His Excellency the President for discharging his obligations under Article 101 of the Constitution by delivering the State of the Nation Address to this august House. I also salute His Excellency the President for raising critical issues, which include guiding the political transition from a Movement system of governance to a multi-party system of governance. I commend His Excellency the President for personally leading the campaign for the opening up of political space during the referendum of July 2005.

Commitment by the National Resistance Movement Government to continue adhering to the constitutional order and the rule of law in the management of public affairs; His Excellency the President did challenge us honourable members to mobilise the population and make them conscious of the need to cherish and adhere to constitutionalism and the rule of law at all times. I think you should begin this exercise in your home because if at home the father is a dictator, the father beats his wife, how do you promote the rule of law? The rule of law must begin in our homes so that it is inculcated into our children.

Ensuring the security of persons and property of all Ugandans; a major security threat to Uganda has been terrorism spearheaded by Kony, especially in Northern Uganda. The Government has used a two-pronged approach: the military offensive and peace talks/amnesty. You will note that Government has sent a team led by hon. Dr Ruhakana Rugunda to work out the modalities of initiating peace talks with Kony.

The peace talks have been prompted by the efforts of His Excellency, Salva Kiir, Vice-President of Sudan and President of Southern Sudan. The indictment of Kony and his top commanders at the International Criminal Court (ICC) notwithstanding, Government has accepted His Excellency Salva Kiirs peace proposals. Should peace talks become successful, Government will find a diplomatic and legal solution to handling the ICC process. I invite honourable members to work with Government in bringing total peace to Northern Uganda.

Madam Speaker, let me take this opportunity to also update honourable members on the steps taken by officers since October 2005 when His Excellency the President advised all the Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) to be supported voluntarily to return home. In some parts of Lango and Teso, some of the IDPs had already gone home even before the President had proposed, after realising that their areas of origin were secure. An IDP profile was done in the sub-regions of Acholi, Lango and Teso, in conjunction with UNDP and IOM. The purpose was to get detailed information regarding IDPs for planning purposes.

In November 2005 a strategic plan for return, resettlement and reintegration for the IDPs was developed by Government. The plan indicates what is required in order to facilitate the effective return of the IDPs. It focuses on security as one of the perquisites for achieving this goal as well as immediate needs of the IDPs like resettlement packages including seeds, tools and shelter materials. Implementation of the action plan for return, resettlement and reintegration is on going.

Successive needs assessment have been done especially in Lira to establish gaps in the return process and find ways of addressing them. In implementing the plan Government has so far provided the shelter materials, iron sheets worth Shs 3.5 billion, to some of the returning IDPs. It is intending to cover all the displaced persons in phases. The Government has also provide ox-ploughs and hand hoes worth Shs 3 million in the last financial year to all the sub-regions in order to promote food security both in camps and in the areas of return.

In addition, Government has set aside Shs 18.9 billion in the financial year 2006/2007 to support the return, resettlement and reintegration plan/exercise. This is mainly intended for purchasing resettlement kits for the IDPs returning home. Another Shs 1.5 billion would be spent on agricultural implements. Mobilisation of more resources and support from partners is being done and various agencies have come in to support our effort. These include UNDP, the UN Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, OCHA; UNHCR under the UN cluster approach, FAO, WFP et cetera.

Under the cluster approach, UNDP is leading the early recovery component. The Government is working hand in hand with UNDP to achieve this. Various sub-projects have been going on in the districts of Gulu, Lira, Katakwi, Soroti and Kaberamaido to promote livelihoods of the IDPs under the transition to recovery programme. This was one way of the supporting IDPs where they have been in camps as well as preparing them for eventual return.

With support from the UNDP Government is implementing a Mine Action programme under which areas of return are combed for mines and unexploded ordinances in order to ensure IDPs return home in safety. Assistance, survival skills, treatment et cetera, will also be done.

I wish to add that for purposes of enhancing coordination of humanitarian intervention for the internally displaced persons, His Excellency the President launched the Joint Monitoring Committee (JMC) to oversee emergency plans for humanitarian interventions for the North under my chairmanship. It was launched on 4 May 2006.

On 27 April 2006 we met hon. Members of Parliament from Acholi, Teso and Lango sub-regions at Kabira County Club and we discussed the return and resettlement of internally displaced persons in their sub-regions. Hon. Members of Parliament made a lot of good proposals and we agreed on the way forward regarding the settlement. You see, before this meeting there were many contradicting statements; there were also statements that were not embracing the people concerned. So, following this meeting we embraced each other politically.

I am happy to report that the operational framework for Emergency Humanitarian Action Plan for the Lords Resistance Army (LRA) affected areas has already been prepared and shared with sector ministers for implementation. We shall indeed use this framework for coordination of the humanitarian assistance to the IDPs by our partners including non-Government organisations.

In fact I wish to inform you that His Excellency the President met NGOs at Rwakitura, and our differences were sorted out and he further directed me to meet them. I shall be meeting them in the North and I have since written to them to request them to indicate areas where they are assisting people, and the money they are using. Many of them have not yet responded, but I shall ensure that they respond because we should not overlap in our activities. But those who have responded have done an excellent job and we shall work together.

On 7 July 2006, I met our development partners to gain consensus on the immediate implementation of the Emergency Humanitarian Action Plan for LRA affected areas. I was encouraged by their response.

Measures to increase on energy supply:
The Government will need the support of the Eighth Parliament in correcting the mistakes made by the Sixth Parliament to revamp the energy sector. I wish to confirm that measures are in place to complete the Bujagali and Karuma Power Stations, as you heard, in the next 44 months.

I invite honourable colleagues to mobilise their constituents to embrace the use of energy saving devices which Government is currently promoting such as solar devices. At my home now we are using a solar water heater and we have reduced our budget by 30 percent. And I can bathe anytime the water is warm and it is not costly. I encourage you -(Interjection)- I shall answer that later (Laughter)

The success of Universal Primary Education and the introduction of Universal Post-Primary Education: the detractors of these programmes have been peddling slogans such bonna basome means bonna bakone Education for all means stunting all the children intellectually. We are not stunting the children; in fact we have upraised the system. It has weakness but they are not necessarily stunted. I wish to re-echo the Presidents appeal that those who have been opposing UPE and universal post-primary education should join us in ensuring their success. Have a positive input!

Commitment to the handling of matters relating the Customs Union as well as the Political Federation of East Africa: the creation of a fully fledged Ministry of East African Affairs is a clear sign of His Excellency the Presidents commitment to the actualisation of the vision of the East African political federation.

Madam Speaker, once again I wish to commend hon. Prof. Latigo, the Leader of the Opposition in Parliament for making a statement on the State of the Nation Address. I, however, wish him to be alert; we wish to make a number of specific clarifications on the pertinent issues raised by him in his statement. The hon. Leader of the Opposition prefaced his paper by observing: After so many years of demonising multi-party politics in Uganda by the NRM, the whole country is now watching us &

I wish to categorically state that the old parties, with due respect, demonised themselves. Their leadership was not only poor but also sectarian. (Applause) The Democratic Party was largely a platform for Catholics while the UPC was largely a forum for Protestants. The Movement System, however, changed the outlook of political parties, including DP and UPC. A Protestant now heads the Democratic Party. The UPC has now become gender sensitive and is headed by a woman. (Applause and Laughter)

I wish also to make another point namely that in Uganda leaders of political parties used to be part-time leaders. Many of them were teachers, they would teach from Monday to Friday then from Friday, Saturday and Sunday they would involve in political activities. On Monday they would go back and teach. These were weekend politicians in comparison to Tanzania where for example Mwalimu Nyerere became a full time leader of the party. And a professor has dealt with this phenomenon in law.

So, absence of full time leaders in political matters was also a major problem weakening the multi-party political system. I could go on and on, but time is short. The transforming of all parties to acquire a national character is a process that will need patience and tolerance from all of us.

Honourable Speaker, I wish to correct one mistake, which was made by hon. Prof. Latigo. The statement by the hon. Leader of the Opposition that the government-owned newspaper carried soccer World Cup news on the front page and made very small references to the speech of the President, deep inside their pages, is false.

I have since contacted the Editor-in-Chief of the New Vision who has confirmed in writing that His Excellency the Presidents State of the Nation Address was the lead story on the front page of the New Vision of Friday, 9 June 2006. On that day there was no story about the World Cup on the front page. Indeed the full text of the speech was published in the New Vision of Saturday, June 10 2006 on pages 4, 5 and 36.

The Leader of the Opposition, therefore, had to say in his statement to Parliament on 28 June 2006, that the World Cup took precedence of coverage of the State of the Nation Address in the New Vision. Madam Speaker, allow me to lay the letter of conformation from the editor-in-chief on the Table.

The hon. Leader of the Opposition accused Government of charging the Forum for Democratic Change leader, Rtd Col Dr Kiiza Besigye in courts on fabricated charges. I wish to categorically state that no fabricated charges have been preferred against any citizen of Uganda. In the case of Dr Besigye, the Police investigated and the Department of Public Prosecutions (DPP) evaluated all the cases against him and took an independent decision to prosecute him.

As colleagues know, the office of the DPP is independent under Article 120 of our Constitution. In some of the cases the courts of law found that the Rtd Col Dr Kiiza Besigye indeed had a case to answer and put him on his defence. The acquittal of an accused person in criminal cases does not imply that charges against him are fabricated until the appeal process has been exhausted and concluded. It is not fair to state that the charges are fabricated. It is not, therefore, proper to demand that His Excellency the President discontinues court proceedings against Rtd Col Dr Kiiza Besigye because the President does not have the power to do so. It is important to let the due process of law take its course and Government will respect the final court verdict in all cases.

With respect to hon. Prof. Latigo, I find his remarks that, In spite of swearing to uphold and protect the Constitution the Seventh Parliament made amendments, including the Kisanja amendment, against the wishes of the population unlike Judas in exchange for mere pieces of silver - I take exception to this attempt to malign the integrity of the Seventh Parliament. I wish to clearly state that the provisions of the 1995 Constitutions are amendable and the Seventh Parliament did amend Article 105(2) in accordance with Chapter 18 of the Constitution.

In his statement, hon. Okello-Okello, Uganda Peoples Congress (UPC) Party Whip in this House, did state that His Excellency the President had not given clear schedule of duties to His Excellency, the Vice-President. The essence of his statement was that as a result, His Excellency the Vice-President has resorted to promoting upland rice growing - a function which falls under the Ministry of Agriculture, Animal Industry and Fisheries. But this matter was clarified! So, I do not need to go into the matter.

I only wish to point out that under Article 112 of the Constitution the Vice-President has additional functions. When His Excellency the President does not attend Cabinet, His Excellency the Vice-President presides over Cabinet. When he is not there, I preside and when I am not there, the First Deputy or the Third Deputy preside over Cabinet. And I wish to point out that His Excellency the Vice-President has chaired Cabinet very well and regularly. So, he is not functionally redundant.

In fact I remember at one stage, was it hon. Aggrey Awori who raised that very point? So from Parliament I went with His Excellency the Vice-President and we met the President and I told him: Your Excellency, Parliament is saying you are not giving adequate functions to His Excellency the Vice-President. He clarified all the issues and also of course the Vice-President did not have any problem. I do not know why other people think there is a problem, which the Vice-President does not mention?

So when I came back here, I informed Parliament that that question does not arise and His Excellency has always assigned many functions to His Excellency the Vice-President, including eradication of poverty, and I believe upland rice is eradicating hunger. So, let that question rest and with this Constitution, should the President be impeached, the Vice-President takes charge. I am sure it will not take place. So, read the Constitution carefully and also you should see what is happening so that you do not make allegations of this nature.

Madam Speaker, let me end by stating that it was not possible for His Excellency, the President to provide Government legislative programme to the current session as part of his State of the Nation Address. This was because at the time of preparing the Presidents address, the new Government had not yet been formed. I will endeavour to ensure that the legislative programme for the second session of this Parliament will be part of the next Presidents State of the Nation Address.

Hon. Members of Parliament, including hon. Betty Amongi, complained that the already disadvantaged Northern region got less allocation of scarce resources such as grants for health and education than other regions. The statement ignores the parameters used in determining resource allocation. These include the population of the region. Furthermore, there are special programmes, which benefit the North, which she ignored. For example, in the North there is Northern Uganda Social Action Fund (NUSAF), which has US $100 million.

The communities determine the priority projects to be financed in their respective areas. For example, communities have selected projects involving construction of schools, laboratories, wells, boreholes, health centers and maize mills particularly in Lira district. Under the Acholi programme, four million Euros were given to the districts of Gulu, Pader and Kitgum to undertake recovery programmes, which included money for construction and rehabilitation of schools, roads, bridges, health centers, an air field in Pader and rehabilitation of Anaka Hospital in Gulu district.

The Karamoja implementation project under the European Union worth four million Euros is for provision of development projects such as schools.

I must add that Government has already formulated the Northern Uganda Recovery and Development Programme covering immediate short and medium terms. We shall share this document with you and all other stakeholders. In fact when we were formulating it we shared it with stakeholders - we did and we shall continue sharing it with stakeholders the incumbents in Parliament and others.

I would like to point out that when hon. Amongi read out the distribution of local Government grants, she omitted mentioning distribution of the equalisation grants. We fulfill Article 193(4) of our Constitution, which states as follows: Equalisation grant is the money to be paid to local governments or giving subsidies or making special provision for the least developed districts; and shall be based on the degree to which a local Government unit is lagging behind in national average standard for a particular service. The North gets 43 percent, east 18 percent, west 33 percent and central 17 percent.

Finally, I am a man of few words. In order for any part of Uganda to enjoy maximum absorption capacity of resources, there must be peace. That is why Government is putting top priority in restoring peace in Northern Uganda so that its absorption capacity may be enough. Madam Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament, I beg to support the motion.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much Prime Minister. Honourable members, before I ask the mover to wind up, I will permit hon. Ogenga Latigo to retract that part of his statement and then we move forward.

1.33
THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (Prof. Latigo Ogenga): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. The Rt hon. Prime Minister and Leader of Government Business, I thank you for your concluding remarks and I rise to make one correction that you pointed out to me. When you prepare such documents you normally get the support of some support staff. The Parliament will bear with me and I am bearing also with Parliament that until the budget for my office is available, I do not have support staff. So, I do everything basically on my own.

If a support staff had looked through, that staff would have pointed out that the statement I made was true of the Daily Monitor newspaper and I took the trouble when it was indicated to me that you were going to mention this, to go to the Parliament library and check on the papers. These are the papers that followed the Presidents State of the Nation Address. The Daily Monitors headline is World Cup Kicks off. And then underneath, there is Saleh clean. The New Vision headline is, Saleh Innocent says Museveni. And, therefore, it is true.

But why am I happier? I am here to admit that I was wrong and you do not even want to give me the time to do it. Therefore, it is true Rt hon. Prime Minister that what the editors of the New Vision wrote to you is correct. I accept that bit but the essence of my message is something that the country should reflect on. Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am hereby directing that all that part of the statement you attributed to the New Vision be expunged from the Hansard.

Now, Prime Minister there is a matter over which I have been agonizing and I have really restrained myself, but which I should talk about now, and that is the role of the Sixth Parliament in the energy sector. Mr Prime Minister, I am extremely disappointed that we have been continuously accused of failing the energy sector.

The Sixth Parliament, after a lot of debate, approved the Bujagali Power Project, we did! (Applause) Six members scuttled the programme - six members, but each time the President talks: The Sixth Parliament disturbed the work. We did not! I want that corrected and I am disappointed that you who were here with us you are also repeating it in the Hansard! The Sixth Parliament did its work. It is six people who frustrated the programme. I want that to end, please inform the President. I think, Prime Minister, you should understand and end this matter of accusing the Sixth Parliament. We did our part. Can I call the mover to wind up?

1.35
MRS SARAH NYOMBI (NRM, Ntenjeru County North, Kayunga): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I am really humbled and gratified for having my name, Sarah Nyombi, as the household name for the last two weeks. It was a great honor and I thank you.

I thank you for giving me this opportunity to wind up the motion, which I moved. I would like to thank hon. Dr Chris Baryomunsi who seconded the motion and all Members who supported and contributed positively to the motion - although some negatively. But I thank them all for their contributions.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for it was not easy steering us through this debate for two weeks. I really thank you very much and this being the our first debate in reply to the State of the Nation Address by His Excellency the President in a multi-party political dispensation, thank you.

We have heard concerns from all Members and mainly from the Leader of Opposition but I am glad that the Prime Minister has cleared the air and I thank the Leader of the Opposition for withdrawing some of his statements. This is a good gesture that we are building our nation and Prof. Latigo said they are not enemies of the state. For us in Government we do not see you as enemies of the state and we expect you to contribute positively to the building of our country. I can assure you that we shall always welcome positive and constructive criticism. As opposition Members, you also have to restrain yourselves from any action, which may jeopardize the stability of our country.

I want to ally the fears of hon. Francis Kiyonga who said that he expected the President to be well informed, updated and to be the most intelligent person but this belief had been reduced. I want to restore his belief. As a girl child, when we were growing up from the age of four, my parents used to tell me that boys were bad until the age of 20 -(Laughter)

The point I am trying to make, the belief of my colleagues was reduced because the President - he was in NRM until recently. He is now Independent and he said that the President had told them to tell their people that multi-party politics was a bad practice. But after 20 years he has turned around and told them now it is okay. The time is ripe; it is the same with my parents. At 20 years they asked me whether there was somebody in my life. I thought there was no wiser person in this world than ones parents. So I wanted to restore my colleagues belief that his President is still wise, intelligent and well informed and the time was right. I know you will all bear me witness regarding that matter.

The challenges have been clearly put forward and the Ministers have responded to all issues and I also want to thank all Ministers for their clear and detailed responses. I thank them so much for the policy statements have been distributed to all Members and I would like to encourage all Members within your committees to read those statements in detail and understand them. I know within our various committees we will continue to raise specific sectoral concerns to which the Ministers will respond in detail. Within the next three months we have to get reports from all the various committees. Please, Members do not give up; we still have time, we are here to put our nation right.

Once again I thank all honourable members for supporting me on this motion and I would like to urge you to put the common and national unity above all other considerations for the development and prosperity of our country.

With those few remarks, I beg to move that the motion that thanks of Parliament be recorded for the clear and precise exposition of Government policy contained in the address on the state of the Nation by His Excellency the President to this Parliament on Thursday 8 June 2006, be adopted. I thank you, Madam Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you honourable members. I now put the question that thanks of Parliament be recorded for the clear and precise exposition of Government policy contained in the address on the state of the Nation by His Excellency the President to this Parliament on Thursday 8 June 2006.

THE PRIME MINISTER (Prof. Apolo Nsibambi): Madam Speaker, let me apologise because I was late but I rang you and said I would come late because I was dealing with very pressing national issues. I should have made this statement earlier; but next week we shall be having a general debate for six working days discussing of course the debate on the budget. Thereafter we shall go into our committees. I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, on that note I would like to appeal to all those Members who have not yet made their maiden speeches to record their names with the Clerk because I want to give them the first opportunity in the forthcoming phase of the general debate. I now suspend the House until 3.00 p.m. We will come back and complete what is on the Order Paper.

(The House was suspended at 1.45 p.m.)

(On resumption at 3.07 p.m., the Deputy Speaker presiding_)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, please join me in welcoming pupils from Sir Apollo Kaggwa Primary School, Nakasero. They are up there, please stand up. You are most welcome.

Secondly, the race for the East African Legislative Assembly has not only caused a lot of excitement but has also caused anxiety. For those Members who have no access to the House of Parliament, we think we should relieve them of stress. I would now like to direct the Clerk of the National Assembly to issue a notice in the Gazette informing those intending to contest to apply through their Chief Whips. We shall receive those applications over the next fortnight and then after that, we shall indicate when the elections will take place. Thank you.

MOTION FOR A RESOLUTION OF PARLIAMENT UNDER ARTICLE 179
OF THE CONSTITUTION FOR CREATION OF NEW DISTRICTS

3.10
THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (Maj. Gen. (Rtd.) Kahinda Otafiire): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I beg to move that the House resolves under Article 179(1) paragraph (b) of the Constitution providing for the creation of new districts that:

WHEREAS Article 179 of the Constitution empowers Parliament to create new districts;

AND WHEREAS it is considered necessary to create the districts specified here under for the effective administration of those areas and bring services closer to the people having taken into account the means of communication, the geographical features, the density of the population, the economic viability and wishes of the people concerned;

AND WHEREAS the creation of the new districts is supported by the majority of Members of Parliament;

NOW THEREFORE be it resolved by Parliament:
1. That the following new districts be created in Uganda and their headquarters be as indicated herein:
(a) Bududa District out of Manafwa District consisting of Manjiya County, with its headquarters at Bududa.
(b) Bukedea District out of Kumi District consisting of Bukedea County with its headquarters at Bukedea.
(c) Lyantonde District out of Rakai District consisting of Kabula County with its headquarters at Lyantonde.

2. That the headquarters of each of the new districts, which is not yet a town council, become a town council in accordance with the provisions of the Local Governments Act.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

THE GOVERNMENT CHIEF WHIP (Mrs Kabakumba Masiko): Seconded.

MAJ. GEN. OTAFIIRE: We have received requests from Rakai District Council to create a new district out of Rakai consisting of Kabula County. The political leaders in this area, including the Members of Parliament and the Kooki chiefdom, met and agreed that Kabula County be elevated to a district status, but it was agreed that Kyotera sub-county should not be part of the new district.

Currently, Rakai District comprises of the counties of Kabula, Kakuto, Kooki and Kyotera. According to the 2002 population census, it has a total population of 471,806 people. In order to provide effective administration and service delivery to the people of Kabula County there is need to create a district that will bring services closer to the people in the area. The proposed district boarders are with Sembabule to the north, Masaka to the east, Kiruhura to the west and Rakai to the south. It is a total area of 700.982 square kilometers.

Generally the proposed district lies in the dry belt of the cattle corridor especially Lyantonde and Kaliro, while Mpumunde, Kinuuka and Kasagama are wide flat valleys and pseudo plains. This area is characterised by soils that are stony and bear rocks. These unique features constitute some of the reasons for demanding a new district. The proposed Kabula district is 106 kilometers via Masaka to Rakai district headquarters while from the furthest point, Kasagama sub-county in Kabula County to Rakai district headquarters is 196 kilometers via Masaka. Given the poor road network, there is a goal for recreation of a strong service point from where people can easily access services. According to the 2000 Population and Housing Censures, Kabula County had well over 96,000 people.

The proposed district is in the Masaka ranching scheme with 17 ranches and over 200 commercial farmers. Over 60 percent of the population is engaged in livestock farming, while 40 percent is engaged in crop farming. The crops include: potatoes, bananas, beans, groundnuts, maize, onions, coffee, millet, sorghum, and et cetera.

Kabula County is not effectively served and administered due to the long distance from Rakai District headquarters. The road network and the conditions of the roads are poor. This requires the people to travel to the district headquarters via Masaka town. Below are some of the social infrastructure, which is available in the area: Four health centre IIIs, one health centre IV now being accredited to a hospital, two Government-aided secondary schools, 35 Government primary schools, two catchment stands for water, eight boreholes, three valley tanks and one water supply at Lyantonde town council.

The proposed district will have three main sources of funding namely: central Government transfers, that is, conditional and unconditional grants and compensation, and locally generated revenue from taxes, rent, rates and fees, NGO and donor contributions.

Our analysis shows that the proposal to create a district out of Rakai missed the criteria stipulated in the Constitution. We also think that in this case the wishes of the people and cultural identity are crucial, critical and paramount and should be respected. The demand to create the district out of Kabula is being driven by the argument that Kabula County is not receiving enough attention from Rakai District in terms of services. We, therefore, recommend and support the proposal to create the new district consisting of the county of Kabula with its headquarters at Lyantonde.

Madam Speaker, we propose that Bududa district be created out of Manafwa District and the reasons for the creation of these districts are that the political leaders of the area, including Members of Parliament, met and agreed that the headquarters of the district be created and be at Bududa. Currently Manafwa District comprises of the counties of Bubulo and Manjiya. It has a total population of 385,103 according to the 2000 Population and Housing Censures.

In order to provide effective administration and services delivery to the people of Manjiya who live in the hilly areas of Mount Elgon, there is need to create a district that will bring services closer to the people in that very hilly area. Manjiya district borders with Sironko to the north, Kenya to the east, Manafwa to the south and Mbale to the west. It covers a total area of 1,049.34 square kilometers out of which 1,035.48 is land, while 13.5 square kilometers is mainly swamp and wetlands. Generally the proposed Manjiya district is mountainous because it is part of Mount Elgon with steep terrain. These unique features constitute some of the reasons for demanding for the new district. The furthest sub-county from Manafwa District headquarters is approximately 16 kilometers and located high up on the mountain. Given the poor road network and the hilly terrain, this calls for creating a strong service point from where people can easily access services. According to the 2002 population census, Manjiya County had 123,103 people. The ethnic groupings include Bagisu, Iteso, Banyole, Langi, Baganda, Basoga, and Bagwere. The Bagisu account for more than 86 percent of the population.

Agriculture is the dominant economic activity of the area and over 84 percent of the households are engaged in agriculture and much of it is subsistence farming. There is limited application of modern techniques of production besides crop farming. The people engage in livestock farming activities mainly rearing Zebu cattle, sheep, pigs and poultry. The proposed new district has a high potential for tourism. Mount Elgon, which is its ridges, forms an attractive scenery and diverse ecological setup with beautiful flora and fauna.

Manjiya County is not effectively served and administered due to the geographical location of the area, which is largely mountainous. Bubulo County in Manafwa has established tertiary institutions right from the colonial times, leaving Manjiya County marginalised. The proposed district has some infrastructure upon which to start and build on, and below are some of the social infrastructure:

Manjiya has a health centre, one of which has a theatre and maternity facilities. It has only one hospital located at Bududa, 13 Government-aided primary schools, and three secondary schools. It has a road network of 175 kilometres of gazetted feeder roads; 50 kilometres of trunk roads; and 250 kilometres of community roads. It also has a sub-post office for communication services, offered by the communication network; and safe water coverage of about 50 percent.

The proposed Manjiya district will have three main sources of funding: the central Government transfers, conditional and unconditional grants and compensation grants; and locally generated revenues, taxes, rents, rates, fees and other contributions from donors and well wishers. Our analysis shows that the proposal to create Bududa district out of Manjiya District missed the criteria stipulated in the Constitution. We also think that in this case, the wishes of the people are cultural identity are critical and paramount and should be respected.

The demand to create the district of Bududa is being driven by the argument that Manjiya County is not receiving enough attention from Manafwa District, and in terms of services, the people in the area are demanding for the district because they believe that their cultural identity will be best reserved if they are in one administrative area and political unit. We, therefore, recommend and support the proposal to create a new district, consisting of the County of Manjiya with its headquarters at Bududa to be known as Bududa District.

Bukedea district to be curved out of Kumi District: we have received requests from Kumi District Council to create a new district out of Kumi District consisting of Bukedea County. The political leaders in this area, including the Members of Parliament, met and agreed that the headquarters for the new district be at Bukedea.

Today Kumi District is one of the biggest districts in the country. It is composed of Kumi, Ngora and Bukedea counties. It has a total area of 2820.68 square kilometers and 389,665 people according to the 2002 population census. Kumi District is, therefore, too large to provide effective administration and service delivery.

The proposed Bukedea district borders with Mbale and Sironko districts in the east, Kumi District in the north, Katakwi and Nakapiripirit in the west and Pallisa District in the south. It also covers a total area of 1,049 square kilometres; out of which 1,035 square kilometres is land and 13 square kilometres is mainly water, swamp and lake. Generally we propose that Bukedea district is flat with plain swamps and wetlands. The furthest sub-county from Kumi District headquarters, Bukooli sub-county is over 70 kilometers bordering Karamoja and Sironko districts. Due to the poor road network, people in those distant areas do not easily access services hence the demand for a district.

According to the 2002 Population and Housing Census, Bukedea County had over 122,433 people, 58 percent of whom are male and 42 percent are female. The ethnic groupings are: Ateso, Bagisu, Banyole, Langi, Baganda, Basoga, Acholi Labwor, and Bagwere. The Ateso constitute approximately 95 percent of the population. Agriculture forms the basis of economic life for these people and over 85 percent of the households are engaged in agriculture and much of it is subsistence farming. There is limited application of modern techniques of production. Besides crop farming, these people engage in livestock farming, mainly rearing cattle, sheep, pigs and poultry.

The proposed new district has a potential for tourism. There are birds, which form an attractive scenery, and diverse ecological setup with rare bird species and beautiful fauna and flora. Bukedea County is relatively not developed in terms of infrastructure compared to the other counties in Kumi district, and due to the past historical marginalisation of the area, for instance, Tororo Girls School was originally supposed to be located in Bukedea County. However, because of the squabbles of the two other counties, the school was finally located at Tororo. The proposed district has some infrastructure to start off with. Below is some of the economic infrastructure in the area:

Ten health centres and one health centre IV with a theatre and maternity unit; 73 Government-aided primary schools, ten secondary schools, two technical schools, one Primary Teachers College (PTC). Following the introduction of Universal Primary Education (UPE) in 1997, primary school enrolment rose and continues to rise year by year. The current enrolment stands at 40,318 pupils. Bukedea has a road network of 213.2 kilometres of gazetted feeder roads; 80 kilometres of trunk roads and 350 kilometres of community roads. A railway line that stretches approximately 80 kilometres between Mbale and Soroti, one post office and other telecommunication facilities, with safe water coverage of about 50 percent.

Bukedea district will have three main sources of funding, namely, central Government transfers, conditional and unconditional grants, and equalisation and compensation grants. Generated revenue will comprise of taxes, rent, rates, fees and other contributions from NGOs and donors and well wishers.

Madam Speaker, the population of Bukedea is 122,433 people and, therefore, Bukedea district with its people needs an identity and reprieve from marginalisation. Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr Minister. Honourable members, I listened carefully to the mover and in all the instances he said that both the leaders at the grassroots and the Members of Parliament are in total agreement. So just to satisfy the Hansard, let us have two people from each of the three districts of Bududa, Lyantonde and Bukedea to speak for it - one of them will be the Shadow Minister for Local Government.

3.30
THE SHADOW MINISTER FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENT (Mr John Arumadri): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Courtesy of the Forum for Democratic Change, I now hold a small portfolio called the Shadow Minister for Local Government, and it is in that capacity that I am going to make a few comments this afternoon.

Article 179(4) of the Constitution, which forms the preamble to this resolution, is noble. It endears us to certain parameters when we are reconsidering the formation of new districts but the way the exercise has always been handled, it is apparent that we first form the districts and then find the reasons why these districts have been formed.

Has it occurred to you that the formation of new districts always coincides with elections? The hon. Member for Kagadi yesterday testified to this. During the elections there was a trade-off, those who wanted votes said, You give me votes and the people said, Our votes have got a price and the price is a district, so a deal was struck. The Member reported yesterday that they delivered their part of the deal and they are still waiting for Government to deliver their part. This is very unfortunate for our country because the creation of a district has very many ramifications.

As a trained economist, the first thing I think about is whether this entity is viable; is it sustainable? Increasingly, we are now reaching the country level to form districts. Very soon the marginalised groups of our people who feel that they are not getting a fair share of the national cake will also start agitating. Sub-counties will also raise the stakes; the price of their votes will go up. (Laughter)

Yesterday I was trying to tap into the wisdom of the former Minister for Local Government Prof. Tarsis Kabwegyere. I said, My senior brother, when you were still the steward of that ministry, did you develop some kind of mechanism through which we arrived at the creation of new districts?

He told me that in politics, when you yell, that yelling is enough for people to listen to you, rain or shine, you would get what you want. This is not the way we want to proceed with the creating of districts. We want proper studies to be done over a period of time and all stakeholders must agree that this is genuine.

We in FDC (Interjections)- yes, a section of our society felt that they are left out of some arrangement and they want to come on board, but the creation of new administrative units is not the way to solve these matters. In the 60s and early 70s we had big districts; mine was called West Nile. We did not ask for districts, we asked for services. If you could deliver the services, then you need not create many administrative units at such big costs. I challenge the government to withhold (Interjection)- let me finish then I will perhaps response to you later on.

I was saying, let Government withhold sending money to the district for a month or two and you will see what happens; the system will collapse. It means we are just propping up units, which are not viable and we are not about to encourage this in the Forum for Democratic Change. We are thinking at the East African level; must we first trap the country in small units and ask them to come back together at a high cost to the country before we can federate? This ad-hoc creation of districts really must stop (Interruption)

MR KUBEKETERYA: I had restrained myself so much from not interrupting the shadow minister of local Government, but the way he is progressing seems to be against the will of the people. Only recently we approved Nyadri, which is sometimes called Kubala District in the West Nile. Is he in order to believe that the members or the local people there do not want these districts?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable member, unless you can prove that there was no demand from the population and the government simply woke up and said we are giving you a district, I think you should abandon that line of argument.

MR ARUMADRI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Certainly the will of the people has to be listened to, but there are many parameters in this decision. As I said earlier, if we come down to sub-counties, because it is the will of the people, even the villagers, I pray hard for you (Laughter)

So in short we are saying that proper studies should be done. We have got an institution called the National Planning Authority; they should be engaged in doing the thing so that we come up with something, which is sustainable.

The position of FDC very briefly is this: at least those are my instructions from the FDC. I have not got the information from the Democratic Party and the UPC; I can only speak for myself. But this is the platform for my party, those who are in agreement with us (Interruption)

MAJ. GEN. (RTD) KAHINDA OTAFIIRE: Madam Speaker, if the shadow minister is talking on behalf of the Opposition, I would like him to give us the principle position of the Opposition. I am not going to talk to all the parties. If I have to change course, I would love an alternative course of action. But if you are going to talk for FDC, then DP talks for itself and UPC also comes for itself, then we will be in mess. I beg the honourable shadow minister, through you, to give me the principle position of the Opposition.

MR ARUMADRI: Thank you my colleague. The FDC is the official opposition in the House. Those who are working with us in cabinet agree with our position, otherwise they will have opted out and what I have as instruction is from Forum for Democratic Change.

In brief it says: we should institute a genuine national dialogue for the review and implementation of lower level governance system for the country addressing, in particular, key weaknesses of decentralization such as sectarianism, localization of the civil service, undermining of personal and professional growth and lack of exposure of civil servants. Furthermore is closed public service, non-remuneration of electoral local leaders like LC 1 chairpersons, rampant corruption and the decline of patriotism, nationalism and national collision.

Secondly, we should establish clear and transparent criteria for the creation of districts and ensure that districts are financially viable and sustainable. I thank you, Madam Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think I will allow hon. Akiror, the lady.

3.42
MS AGNES AKIROR (FDC, Woman Representative, Kumi): Thank you, Madam Speaker for granting me this opportunity to speak. I stand to support the motion. (Applause) I support the motion because as of the case of Bukedea District, Kumi District has really been very vast. I think it is long overdue that Bukedea gets a district status so that we try to take services nearer to the people (Laughter)

3.44
MR ALBERT ODUMAN (FDC, Bukedea County, Kumi): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the Minister of Local Government for bringing this long awaited Bill -(Laughter) As a member of FDC, I am bound to support the position of the party. At the same time, I am a representative of the people of Bukedea County. I have specific instructions from my people to support this motion (Laughter and Applause)

So, Madam Speaker and honourable members you will appreciate my position now that I have to choose between the principal party that I represent and the people of Bukedea. As such, I am going to support the motion. In order to do that I wish to throw a few basic facts - while the honourable minister was giving his preamble, somehow some facts got a bit mixed up. I would like to set the record on some of them straight.

The land area for Bukedea County is 1,049 square kilometres and that is 2.4 times the size of Kalangala. In population terms, the projected population from the 2002 census for Bukedea is 139,447 people. And that is 3.4 times the size of Kalangala -(Laughter)

MR NSUBUGA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to inform my honourable colleague that his comparison is just based on the land area whereas when you are talking of islands you must compute even the nautical miles, which are covered by the water. So, your comparison is naturally wrong. (Laughter)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, honourable members, this is a straightforward matter. Really you do not have to keep on arguing across. Finish your submission, support and finish, and then we move to Lyantonde District. Please, just continue and finish.

MR ODUMAN: So, the road network is about 643 kilometres of feeder roads, trunk roads, and community roads. Why am I saying all this? This is because it poses a challenge on the maintenance of that infrastructure.

In education terms, we have 73 primary schools, ten secondary schools and one PTC. As the honourable minister has said, the UPE enrolment is 40,318. The problem is that for the last academic year only four pupils passed in division one in the whole county. There are ten health centres, many of them in remote areas and access is terribly difficult especially areas bordering Karamoja, in Malara and Kolir. As for the Minister of Energy, he does not have to worry about extending power lines. We have two main power lines for Lira and as well as Soroti main lines. The only problem is that there is no power in the lines (Laughter)

Therefore, Madam Speaker and honourable members, the land area, the population size and infrastructure have posed a challenge to the delivery of services to the people of Bukedea.

Let me give some few more examples; water in Namalu and Irir is a big problem. During the campaigns I was very humbled. At some point I would ask for drinking water, as you know we would campaign in places where you find people in drinking groups drinking malwa, and what they would tell you is that, You know we do not have water for drinking. The little water we have is what we have put here for all of us to share in the pot. So, there is no drinking water.

So I ended up spending whatever I had to buying a few water pipes that would enable the community have water immediately. Because then I would pledge that when you take me to Parliament, I will go and argue for you the case for water, but then they would say that, You will not get us because there is no water. That is the pathetic situation especially in Namalu and Irir, which are bordering Karamoja. The maintenance of roads (Interruption)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: That was the submission from the minister. Those are the exact things he said. He said that there is no road network, you have no water; you have no schools; all that have been said. Please, just conclude your support.

MR ODUMAN: I will conclude, therefore, Madam Speaker and honourable members that I would go on and on to argue the case for the support of this motion but for times sake, I would like to recommend to you, especially Members of the Opposition that the people of Bukedea deserve efficient services. It is not their fault that the service delivery is poor, but it is the fault of the centre. Therefore, I recommend to you to support the motion and I assure you that you are all welcome for the launch. The people of Bukedea have prepared the best bulls for you to feast on when time comes. I support the motion. (Laughter)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, this really should not be a very big debate.

3.50
MR JAMES KAKOOZA (NRM, Kabula County, Rakai): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will support the motion with two reasons but I want to put the record straight first; there is information, which is given by the shadow cabinet minister of local Government who might remain in the shadow cabinet up to 2011 in case it arises.

Lyantonde-Kabula has been a sub-district since 1975 so it is not true that during the 60s and 70s, Government did not grant sub-districts. Bulisa was granted a sub-district status in 1975, and Nebbi was also one of them. They were almost nine. If you look at the background or the history of our country in the 70s, you will prove this.

Having given that information, Kabula has been lacking services. Most of the Members who have been contributing here have said that we should practice constitutionalism. And the President, in his State of the Nation Address said that our Constitution is pro-people, that it is objective to the people. And actually for the Local Government Minister, who is in charge of implementing those objectives - I really say, bravo!

For instance, Article 179(4) says that, Any measure of the alteration of the boundaries or the creation of districts or administrative units shall be based on the necessity for effective administration and the need to bring services closer to the people, and it may take into account the means of communication, geographical features, density population, economic viability and the wishes of the people concerned.

Kabula has been disadvantaged by its geographical nature. The councillor, who comes from Kasagama sub-county, goes to the district headquarters using public means. If the meeting at the headquarters is in the morning, no one can make it because of the distance and the geographical landscape. That means the councillor from that sub-county must leave a day before. What does that mean? That if you check the resources submitted to the local governments, they are not enough. It obliges the person to sleep at the headquarters yet even the allowances are not enough.

So, by this reason I say that Kabula should be granted a district status because of the services, which we need to be provided to our people. And by the way, a district status has a multiplier effect on the economy. The moment you put up any structure, it gives employment, income, and revenue collection for the treasurer, and ultimately, the economy grows.
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When you go by the population census of 2002, the population of Uganda was 24.7 million people and Kabula was 69,000 people. But right now as we talk, we are almost 100,000 plus. What does that mean? That people need services to be brought nearer. With those reasons I beg honourable members in this Eighth Parliament to support me and grant Kabula a district status. Thank you.

3.57
MS BETTY KAMYA (FDC, Lubaga Division North, Kampala): I thank you, Madam Speaker for the opportunity to give the views of the Opposition on the motion before this House.

No one is against taking services to the people. We all want services to be taken to the people. I am quite excited about Kabula becoming a district, being a mukooki from Rakai District.
But the shadow minister of local Government did not principally oppose the creation of districts. He in fact said that it is good for districts to be created but we think that this Government can be more orderly and do things better, and certainly this Parliament as well. We should not just approve districts in an adhoc manner and have those who can reach the centre to get there and those who can eat rats to do so. We should be neat, orderly, and organized. (Applause)

We should agree on a set of criteria. The Minister of Local Government should bring to this Parliament a set of criteria full of which -(Interruption)

MRS MWESIGYE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on a point of order on the basis of Article 179(4) of the Constitution. It clearly sets out the criteria of creating new districts and provides as follows; Any measure of the alteration of the boundaries or the creation of districts or administrative units shall be based on the necessity for effective administration and the need to bring services closer to the people, and it may take into account the means of communication, geographical features, density population, economic viability and the wishes of the people concerned. On this basis, is the hon. Betty Kamya in order to say that Government has no criteria to follow in the formation of new districts?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, honourable members, the Minister was very clear and precise on all the criteria required to form a district. That is why he went to length about the population, schools, roads, health centres. You are out of order.

MS KAMYA: Perhaps I did not express myself well. By saying that we need to be orderly and organized, this criteria should be known. Churches and mosques do it better. If a Church wants to have a parish, they know that you have to build a priests house first; you need a certain level of income and those that qualify for it just go ahead and show that they qualified.

Madam Speaker, this method that we are using of bringing different districts everyday with different data, is not objective and transparent. It promotes patronage and corruption because you need to be near to the centre. Now people need to demonstrate that they can eat a rat; what we are saying is that there should be a criterion that is known by everybody.

MR EKANYA: Madam Speaker, I am really seeking your indulgence. I think FDC should adjourn on this matter so that they come up with a single position in future because there is a contradiction and it is not good. I want to say that there is no official position on this matter in the party yes I want to clarify this because I met the deputy whip knowing that this matter is coming on the Floor and he said that the party has no official position. He said that we support services going closer to the people and, therefore, I want to seek clarification on where my colleague got this position, which they are presenting to the House!

MR EBONG: Madam Speaker, under a multi-party dispensation, we need leaders to be in touch with the party and the party to be in touch with the people. May I know whether it is in order for a party to come up with a position, which is not in relation to the interests of the people, because otherwise, it is taking us time over an issue, which is straightforward? Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, the people who come from Bukedea in FDC have said that notwithstanding the party position, they support this motion. Even the Member for Tororo has said the same thing. So if you have no party position, please leave the matter alone because people who need a district have spoken for it.

MS KAMYA: Madam Speaker, in my preamble I said no one is against creation districts, but we are talking about the methodology. I am very embarrassed that people from this side -[pointing to the opposition]- are expressing our position that way but as someone said, we are all in the learning process of multi-party operations and so we shall harmonise our position. I am sure that I am holding the FDC party platform here and we have a whole section of local governments and it is very clear - it is not even contradictory about the formation of districts, it is about the methodology.

In conclusion, I wish to caution that Uganda has the highest number of administrative units in Africa compared to other countries, which are similar to it. Where Uganda has 74 administrative units, Ghana, which is of the same size and population with a higher GDP and per-capita, has about half as much. So we need to be very careful when discussing these things.

MRS SSENTONGO: May I be clarified; hon. Kamya says that FDC has an explicit copy of what FDC thinks could be the criteria for forming a district. Could you be kind enough and either lay it on the Table or inform us more about it, because we are here to guide Government out of mistakes? Could you please put them forward for us to understand, so that we can find the loophole in the government? We would be grateful.

MS KAMYA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. In good time we shall give you that information, but I want you to know that in our 2005 party platform for Forum for Democratic Change, which I am holding in my hand, we have a section on local Government and establishment of new administrative districts. I want to thank you for the opportunity but I caution that we need to be serious about how we spend our money.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, when you took oath here we gave you a copy of the Constitution and the Rules of Procedure. I advise everybody in this House to read the Constitution thoroughly before you stand in this House to make positions.

4.07
MS LOI KIRYAPAWO (NRM, Budaka County, Pallisa): I thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this motion. I stand to support the motion. I have observed people when they are talking about the cost on administrative units, but I think it is the criteria, which is also laid in the Constitution that we are following; the geographical location, the population and the needs of the people. So when somebody talks of what used to take place in the 1960s and 70s what was the population of Uganda by then?

How many Members of Parliament where in this august House compared to the number of Members of Parliament who are here today? If there is a need for us to be as many as we are now, then there is a need to create more districts to answer the demands of the people. I am sure if you knew where these areas are located, you would support them. Councillors at the district find it difficult to move and they are paid peanuts.

So those people who seem to confuse themselves surprise me; you are supporting and at the same time you are criticising the criteria, which is laid down in the supreme law of this land - the Constitution! Madam Speaker, I stand here to support the motion to grant a district status to those areas. If you knew how far it is from Manafwa to Bududa, if you knew the distance from Bukedea to Kumi, all those areas - we had this experience when Tororo and Pallisa had to go through Mbale as the headquarters. But now people are happy because they are moving short distances.

Even if you were paying transport charges to the councilors, still the cost would be cheaper because the distances are shorter. Because somebody in an area where a bicycle can be would just ride to reach the district headquarters rather than looking for a taxi, which you would spend two days looking for in vain.

So, I request my colleagues to support this motion since it is the demand of the people. Even FDC can see that members of FDC who are coming from those areas know that their people need a district. My request is for anybody who is opposing, to support the motion so that those people get a district status. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

4.11
MR COSMAS BUSIMA (NRM, Budadiri County East, Sironko): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I stand here to support the motion of creating the three districts, but particularly I would like to talk about Bududa, which boarders me.

I want to inform the House that as much as Bududa boarders me, I never see Bududa because we are separated by a very big mountain; even when you approach it from Manafwa side, again it is protected by a mountain. So from time in memorial, Bududa is one of the most fertile lands I have ever known in this country and quite heavily populated; they grow coffee, they do zero grazing and they have natural resources in the form of cement. If you did not know Members, Bududa has one of the best materials for making cement, and it is waiting to be exploited, but the district has never got the services required to bring it up.

Look at Sironko, we used to be under Mbale, but the day we got a district status, we have economically grown. I used to say that we do not drink milk in my place because there were no cows, but because the veterinary services are very close, now I can proudly say that I even produce 20 litters of milk everyday because the services are being brought to me. So, we should not look at this in other ways. Let us service our people; we are here to provide services to them or to see that the government takes services to them. Let us not oppose just for the sake of opposition.

The Government considered all the viability of the three districts and I do not think they just woke up and said, Let there be a district called Bududa. They conducted a study and followed the constitution. If there is another method, which is coming from our brothers across the table, let them table it to us and the whole House will consider it.

Lastly but not least, our shadow minister of local Government made a statement, which definitely I do not agree with, saying that giving districts is as if Government is trading off. I do not think that is correct; if the government is trading off looking for votes the way he was trying to imply, I do not think Bukedea would have got a district because definitely Bukedea never gave FDC votes. So that is not true shadow minister. The Government has done it because it wants services to go to the people. We all want to develop, we want Uganda to come out of poverty and we cannot come out of poverty when we are denying people the services. I stand to support the motion, Madam Speaker.

4.16
MS HUDA OLERU (Independent, Woman Representative, Yumbe): Thank you, Madam Speaker for giving me this chance to share with honourable members in this august House. I stand here to support this motion. It is so brilliant because the masses are complaining of unemployment, which is becoming rampant. So creating districts is also a way of creating employment opportunities for the youth. So by forming districts we are also putting decentralization in effect. When we want to decentralize services then the districts must be created so that the services can be nearer to the people and the people also contribute a lot.

Within Article 179, clause (3), I am recommending that the Parliament should now give power to the district councillors to create the lower administrative units like the sub-counties so that we continue to decentralise services and get them nearer to the people other than being in the districts. For example Yumbe District is a new district, which was formed in 2000 but it only has eight sub-counties. So my wish is that the mandate be given to the district council so that more sub-counties are created, then the services would reach to the people sooner. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

4.18
MR DAVID WAKIKONA (NRM, Manjiya County, Manafwa): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much and I thank everybody who has supported the creation of districts. I support the motion for the resolution of this House brought by the Minister of Local Government. I happen also to come from Bududa District, so I have got clearance from my side of the party to talk as an MP for Manjiya County; so do not be surprised.

Madam Speaker and honourable members, even other members who had indicated a little bit of objection to this in principle, I hope have supported the creation of Bududa District. Hon. Busima Cosmas described Bududa District very well. I will not go back to because the Minister gave the details. But perhaps to add, Bugisu at that time, which is now Sironko, Mbale, Manafwa and Bududa, had four big counties and we divided our jobs as follows:
a) Sironko was for commerce
b) Present Mbale was for academics
c) Bubulo was for administration
d) Bududa was a reserve force to do manual jobs.

This is true and now to drive it home, the first woman graduate for Bududa is Oliver Wonekha who has been in the Seventh Parliament here. Otherwise all girls were married at primary level by the rulers.

The Government has seen this type of marginalisation and are now creating administrative units. This is true and most people in the Opposition know it because many of them have been to these areas, they know it, they are just opening up to marginalised groups in this country. We have this type of thing.

We are now looking at Karamoja, we are looking at the North because of the unique problems of this area and, therefore, it is not strange that we should look at things, at places like Bududa District, which is proposed by the Minister here. There is more than this, we are coming up. Madam Speaker, at one time we were (Interruptions)

MR KAJEKE: Thank you, Madam Speaker and I thank hon. Wakikona for giving way. I was in the previous campaigns and the issue of Bududa District brought so many problems during campaigns. So I would like to sympathize with hon. Wakikona because if he had not been so careful, he would not even be here in this House. Even with the President, the issue of Bududa District became a very hot matter to the extent that the he had to pledge that Bududa would become a district. Therefore, if the President is fulfilling his pledge to the people of Bududa, which he pledged during the campaigns, let it be.

MR WAKIKONA: Madam Speaker, it is only hon. Kajeke I allowed knowing that he would have one side, but he has added a wrong one. The President saw the problems I have enumerated here. He is the only one who listened to the problems of the people of Bududa. We had tried it; these problems kept on reoccurring. When we explained to him, he took his own methods of finding out the truth. When he found out - he is the President anyway, he has to listen to us. He has to know our problems and it is only right for humans to know that somebody who is doing well to you also deserves good.

So Members that side, when we come to voting, all of you please, put up your hands to support this resolution. It is a very vital resolution; soon you might also come and join us to create the district as proposed by the Minister. I thank you very much.

4.23
LT SALEH KAMBA (NRM, Kibuku County, Pallisa): Thank you, Madam Speaker. First and foremost, I stand to support the motion moved by the hon. Minister for Local Government and I say that if there are more who are demanding for districts and have genuine reasons, they should be granted because the principle here is moving services closer to the people.

Secondly, I would like clarification from the Minister for Local Government. Whereas we are creating more and more districts, what are the programmes and what are the plans in place as far as creating more town councils, municipalities and cities is concerned? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

4.25
MR FRANK TUMWEBAZE (NRM, Kibale County, Kamwenge): Madam Speaker, I support the motion and I have two issues to base on. The minister from the Shadow Cabinet raised the issue concerning the viability of districts. Districts are not business entities such that at the end of it all you look at the balance sheet of where they have made profits and losses. They are service delivery units. What you look out to measure in terms of success is the services delivered; the infrastructure that is improved and so on.

I come from a district that was created in 2000. Six years now, we are far much better than we were six years ago. Roads are better, planning was made easier because the geographical size was reduced and people now engage their leaders.

When we talk of democracy, we must know the prerequisites of building the culture of democracy. One of them is full participation of the citizenry; but how do they participate when they are not engaging with their leaders, when they are demanding for their services and when they have no access to the service delivery centres? So it is not about asking whether it is viable. We are not making money out of districts but we are empowering lives and making communities better.

MS AOL: Madam Speaker, the previous speaker talked about not focusing on economic ability. Is he in order when that is also stated very clearly in the Constitution in Article 179(4)? The focus is not only about services but economic viability is also an area to be looked at. Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think the honourable is still studying the Constitution, so there is no problem.

MR TUMWEBAZE: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your wise ruling. I regret the time lost. I said they are not business entities but they improve services; economic viability automatically comes up. For example, when you make the railway going to Kamwenge, economic viability will come up. But it is not Kamwenge District trading; you should understand that.

Finally, the hon. Member for Lubaga talked of Uganda having the highest number of districts. I am proud of that. Those are indicators of high levels of our peoples involvement. These districts are not dictated upon the people; people go through the right procedures and demand for them; people want to see their leaders near them, not far from them. So we should understand the principle, our political misgivings and tendencies notwithstanding. I support the motion and I thank you, Madam Speaker.

4.29
DR FRANCIS EPETAIT (FDC, Ngora County, Kumi): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Todays motion for creation of, among others, Bukedea district is going a long way in helping us answer the questions that we have been bombarded with for almost the last two years. The minister rightly pointed out that the district local council of Kumi sat and sent a resolution proposing the creation of Bukedea district, but in the same resolution, they also had approved the creation of Ngora town council. It was contained in the same resolution and the questions that we have been facing were about the fate of Bukedea district and Ngora town council.

I would be delighted if the minister reassured me on the fate of Ngora town council, the data of which I think is already in your office: consisting of over 22,000 people, three tertiary institutions, eight secondary schools, eight primary schools, a hospital and two health centres. I would be happy if I got that reassurance. Thank you.

4.31
THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (Maj. Gen. (Rtd.) Kahinda Otafiire): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I would like to thank all those Members of Parliament who have given solace and support to our proposal for this resolution, and I have also taken note of the concerns of those who are ambivalent about the creation of these districts. Unfortunately, the message I got from FDC was a set of irregularities encrypted; I need a decoder to decipher it. I do not know whether you have said yes or no. I hope and pray that when it comes to voting, they vote wisely.

It is not true that we are trading off votes for districts. To the contrary, the ministry is suppressing a lot of demand for districts. We do not go around dispensing districts like Holy Communion; people demand for districts and the demand is sometimes so loud and clear that people get to the extent of doing (Interruption)

MR MATHIUS NSUBUGA: Madam Speaker, is the honourable minister in order he is even a Catholic and he knows that to receive Holy Communion you must be prepared; not everybody receives it. So, is he in order to say that Holy Communion is dispensed to anybody?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, an impression was created here that the government wakes up and asks whoever wants a new district and they give. But, honourable members, this is my understanding. In Holy Communion, anybody who is ready and able is given. So, the minister is saying that if you are ready and able (Interjections)- honourable members, I am a protestant and I also take Holy Communion and you are asked that those who are ready, please, come. What he was saying is that, you do not just give districts anyhow; there are reasons and prayers and other things that cause him to give a district.

MAJ. GEN. OTAFIIRE: Thank you, for that wise ruling, Madam Speaker. This is not a Catechism class. So, I thank hon. Nsubuga. Mine is not to teach religion, but a mundane mission. What I was saying is that, right now we are considering the creation of other districts. I will give you an example of the district consisting of Terego and Maracha counties. You very well know that those counties did not vote for us, so if it were a question of quid pro quo I would not be thinking about creating that district.

MR: ANGIRO: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Is it in order for the honourable minister to tell this august House that when it comes to voting, we should vote wisely? What does it mean by voting wisely? If I do not vote on your side, is it not voting wisely? Is he in order?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think the minister can explain what he meant.

MAJ. GEN. OTAFIIRE: Madam Speaker, I do not think it is wise to vote against the wishes of the population. Anyway, before the honourable gentleman interrupted my speech, I also wanted to say that I am confounded by the shortness of memory. If you will recall what happened to me yesterday during question time, I was bombarded by lots of demands, and I had to commit myself in this House 24 hours ago that I am going to do Buliisa, Kibanda, Tororo. Hon. Geoffrey Ekanya does not subscribe to NRM principles, but I am contemplating his district because the method of delivery was loud and clear and if I do not consider the cost of public administration, the alternative could be more costly.

Those districts have to be created because the people demand for them and are aggressive. And they are viable because in the 1960s, the population of Uganda was five to seven million people and we are now about 29 million people. That is a sizeable crowd and that crowd has to be administered effectively.

Any country is run by two ministries: the Ministry of Local Government and the Ministry of Internal Affairs. The ineffectiveness of the ministries of Internal Affairs and Local Government spells disaster for any country worth its name. You could have a country without a state authority. The state authority is decided upon by the people participating democratically to demand for close services, and once those services are rendered then you have democratic participation. We are voted into power to satisfy the demands of the population.

I would like, therefore, to thank the honourable shadow minister for his contribution but please agree with me that in order to render community services to our people, we have to grant these districts.

There was a concern about the creating of lower administrative units. I would like to inform the honourable Member of Parliament that lower administrative units may be created by districts and town councils according to the Local Government Act. On page 7, Articles 1,2,3 and 3(a) divisions and councils requesting for lower local governments may with the approval of the minister declare an area to be a town board or create a municipal council.

The Act authorizes local governments to create lower administrative units and I would like to inform hon. Epetait that, Cabinet approves the creation of town boards and town councils. That is, I do not have to bring them here. Furthermore, when we are ready, Ngora town council will be granted and that is a promise. There are other town councils that have been created like Kakiri, Busorwe, Nagongera and others are coming on board.

Finally, I am sure that the various Members of Parliament, who supported this motion, including members on the opposite benches, have appreciated the need for the creation of these districts. Madam Speaker, I beg for the support of all Members of this House our political differences not withstanding because this is a service to our people. I hope this resolution will be supported and passed by this honourable House. Madam Speaker, I rest my case and I beg to move.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, honourable minister and the Members of the House. We have received enormous support and there was no significant opposition to this motion. Therefore, I would like to put the question starting with Bududa district. Honourable members, I put the question that Bududa district be created out of Manafwa District consisting of Manjiya County with its headquarters at Bududa.

(Question put and agreed to.)

MR EKANYA: Madam Speaker, to avoid legal challenge, the law requires - is it two-thirds? (Interruption)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: It requires a simple majority. I put the question that Bukedea district be created out of Kumi District consisting of Bukedea County with its headquarters at Bukedea.

(Question put and agreed to.)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I put the question that Lyantonde district be created out of Rakai District consisting of Kabula County with its headquarters at Lyantonde.

(Question put and agreed to.)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, we now proceed to Private Members business.

THE MOTION FOR A RESOLUTION OF PARLIAMENT TO REQUEST THE PRESIDENT TO DESIGNATE TWO NATIONAL DAYS FOR PRAYER AND THANKSGIVING

4.43
MRS JANET MUSEVENI (NRM, Ruhama County, Ntungamo): Madam Speaker and honourable colleagues, I beg to move under Rule 51 (1)(b) of our Rules of Procedure that Parliament resolves to request the President to designate two national days of prayer and thanksgiving.

WHEREAS prayer has been central to the lives of Ugandans;

AND WHEREAS like in all other nations worldwide, corporate prayer provides an opportunity for citizens and peoples of all faiths and convictions to congregate and express gratitude for the many blessings received and to pray for the nation, its people and its leaders;

COGNIZANT of the fact that Uganda, though well endowed with abundant natural resources and skilled people, is ranked among the poorest with a low human development index and with so many people living below the poverty line;

AWARE that Uganda, bedevilled by civil war in the Northern part of our country, the ravages of HIV/AIDS, corruption in public offices as well as food shortages, has always benefited from Gods Grace and Compassion;

FURTHER AWARE that it is appropriate and fitting to seek direction, guidance, strength, determination and focus from God in times of conflict, divergence and tumult;

AND WHEREAS it is also appropriate and fitting to give thanks to the Almighty God for what Uganda has received as a nation throughout the year;

NOW THEREFORE, this motion is moved that this House resolve as follows:
That;
1) The President designates;
a) A national day of prayer and fasting at the beginning of each calendar year.
b) The national day of Thanksgiving also be designated at the end of each calendar year.
2) That all the people of Uganda may honour these days and participate in all non-denomination prayers in their respective places of worship.

Moved by Janet Museveni, Member of Parliament for Ruhama County.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is it seconded? It has been seconded. Now, honourable members, the manner of debating motions requires that after she has moved the motion, I am required to propose the question before we debate.

DR KIBIRIGE: Point of order.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order? (Laughter)

DR KIBIRIGE: I withdraw it. (Laughter) I was just wondering whether it is in order for any of us to remain standing when you are talking. I thank you. (Laughter)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, the Speaker shall be heard in total and absolute silence and there will be no movement. Now, honourable members, the motion has been seconded, so now you can go to the text and justify.

MRS MUSEVENI: Madam Speaker, it is a humbling honour for me to stand here today as a Member of the Eighth Parliament and to address the national House of legislature. The point I want to make and to share with my colleagues is one; that I believe to be most important for our country as we begin to fulfil the duties we are charged with.

Laws govern nations and it is these laws that bring about the security and stability that are the pre-requisite for growth and development. What we tend to forget is that, there is a history to these laws and they are rooted in the commandments that were handed down to us by God himself. Trouble comes when we divorce our laws from their origin and forget the One who gave them to us and begin to believe that they are man-made.

God says in the book of Deuteronomy, chapter 28 that: if we, as a people, obey his commandments upon which all laws are based, He will set us higher above all nations on earth and bless us. He will grant us prosperity and we will lend to others instead of being borrowers. On the other hand, in the same text He says that, if we disobey or disregard His commandments, we will attract His displeasure and He will send confusion and rebuke to everything we put our hands on. This is Gods truth whether we want to believe it or not.

Madam Speaker and honourable members, at the outset of the life of this Parliament and before we get busy with our various chores, let us pause a moment and take a hard and sober look at the state of our nation today. Ours is a country that has been blessed and endowed with natural abundance of resources, a good climate and amazing fertile soils. Today, we also have many educated and skilled people. The Creator obviously did not intend for Uganda to be poor and dependant on any other nations. But for decades now, we are ranked among the poorest of the wretched poor in the entire world.

The population of Uganda is 28 million people according to Housing and Population Census 2002. Of these, 38 percent live below the poverty line. They earn less than a dollar a day. If you earn less than a dollar a day by definition of monetary poverty, then you are poor. Nearly 9.8 million Ugandans are living below the poverty line.

Our people are still plagued with the threat of HIV/AIDS. We are struggling with the war in the North and we have corruption in public offices. Right from the time our generation was still young, the potential of our nation has been enslaved by violence, disease, ignorance and all the attendant evils thereof.

We must ask ourselves, why are we starving in the midst of such plenty? Where have we gone wrong? What is it that we need to change in the way we do things? Where is the key to unlock the door to the resources of this potential food basket of this continent?

I do not believe that any honourable member of this House can stand up and honestly tell us that he/she has the answers to remedy our nation and pull it up to the position that God meant it to be. Yes, Madam Speaker, we have programmes and many of them are good programmes. But that has obviously not been enough. We know that there is One who has all the answers; God created us and He knows the beginning from the end. He has the answers for our nation. When we ignore God and put His instructions aside, confusion is the result.

On paper we construct what appear to be good programmes to address the social and economic ills of our nation but there is little substance behind them if we do not base them on the wisdom that only God can give. And so, we go round and round in circles taking advice from the so-called experts from other nations yet God clearly tells us that if we lack wisdom, we should ask it of Him.

Madam Speaker, the greatest poverty that we have as a people I believe is poverty of the spirit. Our greatest lack is the lack of this essential knowledge, concerning the source of all knowledge. If we, as leaders of our people, proudly refuse to give God first place in our affairs, then our nation is to be pitied because when the blind lead the blind they all fall into a pit.

Above all, Madam Speaker, we suffer from poverty of perception and by that I mean the way in which we see and understand the issues at hand and how we conceptualise and grasp the scope and magnitude of our problems and challenges. Let me take as an example the persistent question of corruption which is forever at the forefront of all Government critics and which I know vexes the minds of the leaders of this country. How do we conceptualise corruption as a society?

It seems to me that we have tended to conveniently define corruption as the embezzlement of public funds. I said conveniently because this lets many of us off the hook since we are not all public servants with access to the coffers of Government. But does that really mean that we are all not corrupt? Why do we limit corruption only to public funds? The dictionary meaning of the word corruption is and I quote: Dishonest or wicked behaviour. This, of course, includes bribery and embezzlement of public funds.

However, it goes beyond this narrow interpretation and covers even such things as not following accepted standards of behaviour. For example, in our sexual practices as a society, what should we call people who defile children or those who entice young girls and infect them with HIV? Are they not corrupt? What about people who deliberately misrepresent, exaggerate or distort information and in the process mislead an entire nation for monetary gain, is that not corruption?

When we talk about corruption in Uganda today, we tend to restrict ourselves to the narrow meaning given to it by the Constitution, which established the Inspectorate of Government and the Leadership Code and which seeks specifically to promote the rule of law and eliminate corruption in public administration. This meaning conveniently excludes most Ugandans because they are not in public offices. This is characteristic of the poverty concept and the lack of depth in the way we address issues, which I referred to earlier and which plagues our society.

Therefore, Madam Speaker, I wish to request that both the purpose of my statement and the proposal I have tabled, be viewed in the context of this wider and fuller meaning of corruption and also as an attempt at achieving a breakthrough in the empathy of poverty, ignorance and disease that has continued to impede our progress as a nation.

As we begin business in the Eighth Parliament, I propose that we pass a resolution, as I have just said, asking the President to designate and set apart some days annually, that is one in the first half of the year as a national day of prayer and fasting so that we can implore the Heavens to shower blessings on the land and another day in the second part of the year, preferably towards the end as a national thanksgiving day for what God will have provided throughout the year.

I need to clarify that my request for these days does not necessarily mean additional public holidays. I do this fully aware that I am running a risk of being misunderstood and once again having my words compared to the spiritualism of the Lords Resistance Army by those who like to scorn and mock but I am willing to run that risk.

Madam Speaker, greater nations than ours have this practice of regularly seeking Gods answers as a people not only in the present day world but also in ancient human history. When King Solomon, the wisest leader in history, set apart a special place and a special time to seek Gods face regarding Israels fortunes God answered him. When I shut up Heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land or send pestilences among my people, if My people who are called by My Name will humble themselves and pray, and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

The purpose of that entire exercise, and many others to be found in Scripture and other holy books, was to seek Gods face for the healing of nations ills. Such precedents of corporate prayer are worth emulating, my dear brothers and sisters.

Permit me now, Madam Speaker, to quote briefly from Abraham Lincolns proclamation in the 19^th Century when he, as President of United States of America, designated a national day of humility, fasting and prayer. He said: And in so much as we know that by His divine law, nations like individuals are subjected to punishment and chastisement in this world, may we not justly fear that awful calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land may be a punishment inflicted upon us for a presumption of sins to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people. We have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity, we have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God, we have forgotten the precious Hand, which preserved us and we have vainly imagined in the deceitfulness of our hearts that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become so too self sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us.

The United States of America may not be, as we know it today, a paragon of virtue but since they acknowledge the importance of corporate prayer, God has blessed them even more and even we in Uganda are benefiting from the overflow of Gods blessing to that nation. Whatever else it maybe, America is a praying nation.

Madam Speaker, believing sincerely that God is the one in control of our destiny as a young nation, and believing that everything we do in the physical has its origin in the spiritual realm, and aware that each one of us very recently swore by the Almighty God, imploring His help in serving the nation, I now must humbly submit that this proposal be debated by this august House preferably at this time. I pray that it will find favour before the honourable members.

I have faith that God will honour the motives and intentions of our hearts and give us wisdom. I want to appeal to you my brothers and my sisters, before you stand up to talk that if you want to oppose this motion (Laughter)- please, first think about your children or loved ones who deserve peace, prosperity and all the good that praying to God can bring and then speak! I thank you, Madam Speaker. (Applause)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Just a minute, honourable members. I have a small announcement to make. I wish to remind all the Women members of Parliament that, after the session they will assemble in the Conference Room to conduct elections for the Women Parliamentarians Association. Please do not go away after the session.

Secondly, I am required to propose the question. The question is that, this House does approve the motion for a resolution of Parliament to request the President to designate two national days for Prayer and Thanksgiving. You may now debate.

MR AMURIAT: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of procedure. The mover has moved the motion, and I know it is our practice here in the House that the seconder be given opportunity to second the motion. I do not know whether it is procedurally right for us to begin debating before the seconder seconds the motion?

5.06
MR EMMANUEL DOMBO (NRM, Bunyole County, Butaleja): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I stand here to second the motion. This is a unique time for the Eighth Parliament that we should find an opportunity to talk about matters most especially as they relate to God. God has manifested Himself to each of us in different ways; and if an opportunity was accorded to each Member to give a testimony, you would wonder at the Mercy of God.

However, how often have we, as national leaders, taken the opportunity to give national guidance on how best we should conduct matters of morality and administration in as much as they relate to God? This is a question that each of us should be asking in our hearts. Madam Speaker, before we assumed our responsible offices we took oaths, which the Moslems affirmed with the Koran and Christians with the Bible. However, how many times do we reflect on the contents of the Books that we used to swear and how many times have we taken the time to reflect on the Wishes or the Will of God for mankind?

Madam Speaker, you appreciate that the levels of morality in our country have been degenerating and there has been wide debate both in the Seventh Parliament and other parliaments and even in the media. Even this morning, as we were talking about UBC and the public media, people were wondering why we are not doing our best to give national guidance and focus as leaders. These are questions that we keep asking ourselves.

Madam Speaker, when I was reflecting on this motion and as I read the contents, I wondered because many times we have taken God for granted. In most cases, when we have achieved and made great things happen, we have taken it for granted that it is by our own might and strength. Quite often one reflects that there must be a mightier power somewhere that enables us and moves the heavens and the earth.

Madam Speaker, each of us here went through an election but have we ever asked ourselves why we were the ones who were elected and not our opponents? It may be that it was Gods Will for us to carry the banner, give national guidance and also show cause as to why God should be honoured in this country.

Madam Speaker, there is a reason why our forefathers who created this nation Uganda chose our Motto and said it is: For God and My Country. There is also a reason why they chose our National Anthem and made it more of prayer. Through the National Anthem, our country is more internationally known because of its history in relation to Ugandan matters.

Madam Speaker, what should I say that people do not know? When you read the Bible or Koran, it is clearly highlighted that, The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Who of us would not wish to be a wise leader and who wants to stand on this Floor to oppose this motion in order to demonstrate that he does not want to be a wise leader? These words that I state are contained in the Books that we usually hold high when taking oath. We all wish to be wise leaders and for God to use us in a wise way, as we execute our powers.

It is for this reason that every session in this Parliament is opened by dedicating it and our leaders who have been given powers by God to discharge justice in this House - (Interruption)

MR NANDALA-MAFABI: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker and my brother, hon. Dombo. The clarification I want to seek is that, we have been here for so many years. Is it after 20 years that we are realizing that God exists when we know there are people in the IDP camps who nobody has mentioned? You are saying that now we are upright but I want to quote the Bible, 2Chronicles 10:4 - (Interruption)- yes, I thought today we are talking about God: Your father put a heavy yoke on us; but now lighten the harsh labour and the heavy yoke he put on us, and we will serve you. What do they mean here when they say they will serve him? Are we now remembering to serve God when in Parliament?

MR DOMBO: Madam Speaker, it is for those very reasons he is talking about that this Parliament should dedicate time for Members and leaders to know God. If he knew God the way he was supposed to, he would not be seeking that clarification. This is the Eighth Parliament and there has been a lot of effort by religious leaders - I know the First Lady led a team to Northern Uganda to pray for the people who were in the camps.

All this was an effort to show and demonstrate to the people of Uganda the Supremacy of God. Honourable members, I do not think anybody here doubts the Supremacy of God; but judging from the way we have conducted our affairs as leaders, we have not exalted God in the manner that we ought to and that is what this motion is seeking to do.

I wish to conclude and say, God is watching us at this time in this House and God will wonder at any leader who will stand on this Floor to oppose an opportunity for us to exalt and recognize Him. I support the motion.

5.16
DR NSABA BUTURO (NRM, Bufumbira County East, Kisoro): Madam Speaker, this is a very important moment for this House and for our country and I want to support this motion. I want to start by observing that, hardly any honourable member in this House can fail to say that he/she is in this august House by the Grace of God. If there is such a Member, then I and the whole nation watching this debate will be very interested in what that Member has got to say.

May I remind you, Madam Speaker and honourable members, that in the last elections, my political opponent hired the services of a witchdoctor and I openly (Interruption)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable minister, that opponent of yours will not have an opportunity to come to this House to tell us whether he/she practised witchcraft. The fact that you are here means people voted for you. Do not talk about that person.

DR NSABA BUTURO: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for your guidance but it is a fact that I stood on Gods principles and that is why I am here. I believe that most of us know that we are here by the Grace of God. It is also true that majority of Ugandans believe there is a God and so they worship and praise Him on days of their choice. I remind those who are familiar with the Bible and perhaps the Koran that, when the children of Israel were in exile in Egypt, they suffered immensely and they were liberated only because of prayer. As a result, they set aside time to pray and thank God for the liberation and to pray for more blessings to come their way.

We have been reminded by the mover of this very historic motion that one of the greatest nations on earth today has set aside time for national thanksgiving. There is a reason why this great nation has decided to do that. First of all, the founders believed in the existence of God and that is why their Constitution has so much to do with Gods existence and His centrality in the affairs of that nation.

It pays to say that we, as Ugandans, must have a culture of praying and setting aside time to corporately come together and thank God for what He is doing in our land. It is true that this country has huge problems but we believe that God will listen if we collectively pray at regular intervals.

Madam Speaker, I want to make an observation in support of this motion and it is that, something must be terribly wrong with the psychic of people who do not believe that God exists. There are also those who believe that He actually exists but do not give Him time so that that recognition is formalized. This is dangerous and this great nation which is one of the greatest and most beautiful on earth, must return to God because only in that way will this countrys challenges be surmounted.

Corruption is a problem because we have chosen to abandon God-centred values from our daily lives. I know that a number of analysis have been given to this social vice, but the first one is that Ugandans have chosen to abandon God-centred values and hence this situation is now causing a great deal of concern to most of us. Those who have chosen to ignore Gods existence, values and importance in our lives will come out and say this august House is wasting time.

I want to say that, in fighting corruption, we must know that if we are to fight it successfully and defeat it we must as a start embrace Gods values. That is why yesterday I said that those who are experts in pointing figures at Government for not overcoming this social vice should look at themselves first. It is important that we do that in prayer as recognition that this great country is not made of saints but of men and women who are susceptible to the challenges of sin. We must humble ourselves and pray continually because God is able to listen to us and we will be better off.

Madam Speaker, I want to share with honourable members that Uganda is now a target of organised external interests in cohort with internal collaborators to abandon our fear of God. I want to encourage our colleagues here that, it is important that we do not let this nation down. Ugandas National Anthem and motto both emphasize the centrality of God in our nations affairs and there is no Member in this august House who has not stood before you holding a Bible or Koran in recognition of Gods existence. What a bad example we would be setting to say that we are not men and women of integrity who are doing one thing but believing another.

Madam Speaker, as I finish, I want to implore my colleagues to seize the moment. This is a point at which this great country will experience a turning point. I want to say that the future of Uganda is in our hands. If we abandon God, we will have let down our posterity. We are engaged in a very fierce battle for the soul of this great land; it is a battle that is invisible but present. Our morals are gradually being taken away in exchange for values we did not know yesterday. These are gradually becoming acceptable; so let us not let this country down. We must not allow Uganda to become a basket case of immorality as we are beginning to witness.

This is a great motion for all Ugandans irrespective of religion to come together in unity and pray. It is a motion, which recognizes Gods centrality and has the potential to transform and bring about greater stability, liberty and freedom for this great land. Can I say, Madam Speaker -(Interruption)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable minister, you need the support of other Members, but if you take the Floor for too long they will not be able to speak.

5.25
MR CHRISTOPHER KIBANZANGA, (FDC, Busongora County South, Kasese): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker and I thank the First Lady for having thought of moving this motion, as it is very fundamental and important. When you look at the magnitude of problems we have in this country and the way people are trying to struggle to find solutions as well as the way they are conducting themselves in these public offices, you cannot avoid to dedicate this country into the hands of God.

Madam Speaker, when you see a patient dedicating his life to God, you know that there is something wrong with the doctor. You know that the patient doubts the doctor, the nurses and the attendants. That is when the patient says, Oh! God, into your hands I place my life. That is the essence of this motion and on this basis I have no option but to support this motion. This country is in trouble and the doctors and nurses are just doing their own things.

On the other hand, this motion is based on the Bible. The Bible and Koran have Constitutions for which no man can even attempt to amend otherwise you risk having a Jihad. However, according to the constitutions of our own doctors and the nurses, a doctor can easily say, I think I prescribed a wrong drug, it was Aspirin but let me amend my prescription and give you Hedex. This is a very funny way of conducting public business.

Madam Speaker and honourable members, Mahatma Gandhi once said, Be what you would like the world to be. You cannot ask someone to be nice and good to you when you are not good yourself. (Applause). Your public image and mine would make the best world for our children. I will leave that point as food for thought.

I also support this motion because we need spiritual revival. We are spiritually dead and collapsing. When you tour the suburbs of this town and note the way people are conducting business, the way our doctors, nurses and the attendants of this country are behaving, our children in Katanga are drinking sewage water, people abandoning their children and families, children on the streets of Kampala, people are selling themselves on the streets, you cannot avoid dedicating the life of this country into the hands of God!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please, conclude.

MR KIBANZANGA: However, Madam Speaker, we have so many days of prayer and if you love God and you are a Christian like me, then every evening and morning before you come here you have to say a prayer. But the way people behave I doubt that they say their prayers before they go to bed and before they come here to work. We have Friday for Moslems, Saturday for SDAs and Sunday for the rest of us. We also have Uganda Martyrs Day; the 25th of December; Easter; Idd el Fitri, Idd Mubarak and Idd Adhuha. All these are days of prayers. I thought that all Christians in this country go for prayers on 25th December and 1st January and that all Moslems go as well. By the way there is no pagan in this country, I do not know why.

Madam Speaker and honourable members, I support this motion based on the magnitude of problems in this country, but I am also sending a message to the doctors and nurses of this country that please reform. This is your country. If we have chosen to be public servants, let us be public servants. We cannot double as businessmen and women and at the same time be public servants. I thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity.

5.32
MR IBRAHIM LUBEGA KADDUNABBI, NRM (Butambala County, Mpigi): Thank you, Madam Speaker. The way I understand this motion is that, it is intended to correct the imbalances that have been happening in this world and specifically in Uganda. I am aware that Christians have 52 Sundays in a year for prayers and in Uganda all those are public holidays. I am aware also that the official prayer day for Moslems, Juma, is a Friday and it is not a public holiday. When we are handling this motion, therefore, we should be mindful that even the Moslems of Uganda would like to go for Juma and have a public holiday.

It was only during Idi Amins regime that the Muslims of Uganda had a half-day at least on Friday. I am further aware that Christians in Uganda have six days when you count Good Friday, Easter Monday, Martyrs Day, Christmas and Boxing Day (Interjections)- Madam Speaker, I need your protection.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order Members, let him speak.

MR KADDUNABBI: The Muslims of Uganda have two public holidays: that is Idd El Fitri and Idd Adhuha. Therefore, I stand to support the motion with the view that it is going to correct the imbalances we are facing in Uganda.

Secondly, as a Chairman of the National Economy, I am disturbed when I hear that we are requesting for two more days to be made public holidays (Interjections)- I will get clarification from the mover at an appropriate time.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, honourable members, I do not think she is looking for a public holiday. What she is looking for is a day for praying for the nation and my understanding is that, we can pray on a Friday in our Mosques, on Saturday with the Seventh Day Adventists and on Sunday in the ordinary way in our Churches. She just seeks that it should be declared a day of national prayer. She is not requesting for a public holiday; I did not understand it to be like that.

MR KADDUNABBI: With that in mind, Madam Speaker, I propose that we make Martyrs Day a national day for the non-Muslims and Idd Adhuha a national day to cater for the Muslims and we shall have solved the problem. I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Kaddunabbi, in Kenya and Tanzania, their days are actually designated and known in advance that Idd will be on such a date so it will be a holiday. You might consider requesting that they be designated formally on the calendar so that everybody knows in advance.

5.37
MS AGNES AKIROR (FDC, Woman Representative, Kumi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for granting me this opportunity. I would like first to extend my sincere thanks to the Member of Parliament for Ruhama for having got this insight into the spiritual well-being of this country. It is written in the Bible that love your neighbour as you love yourself and to forgive is the best revenge.

In line with this, I support the motion but I would like to suggest that one of those prayer days be made a national prayer reconciliation day for the nation because we need to reconcile as Ugandans. Madam Speaker, on such a day, we would fast and pray and imagine on one such day having the President of this country and the party President of FDC sharing ideas and shaking hands. We would have come a long way as Ugandans and this would encourage reconciliation among the living as well as discourage the culture of us reconciling with the dead. Warring parties would reconcile, the rustlers and the rustled would come to terms with what has happened and the corrupt and the corrupted would learn to live with each other in harmony.

Madam Speaker, if we are to seek forgiveness from God, the Father Almighty, we should first learn to forgive ourselves because if we cannot forgive ourselves, how will God forgive us?

Madam Speaker, honourable members of this House and the entire nation of Uganda, I think apart from praying in words, we should also encourage ourselves to pray with our actions because actions mean more than words. I support the motion but I hope an amendment will be made so that at the end of the year after we have wronged ourselves we can come to terms, kneel down and ask God the Father Almighty to forgive us. That way I believe God will look down upon Uganda and redesign our destiny as a nation. Thank you. For God and My Country.

MR AMURIAT: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. As we debate any motion in this House, I think the motion needs to be understood. I would like to seek clarification from the mover of the motion and this clarification arises from the fact that I seem to be confused. Initially, I understood that the mover was asking this Parliament to pass her motion to consider a resolution of Parliament for a public holiday, to enable all the people of Uganda to observe these days and participate in activities aimed at meeting the objectives of the exercise. Now, if all the people of Uganda have to participate actively, it means they have to give up their normal routine in order to be available to participate. Therefore, I do not see civil servants participating actively while in their offices otherwise it will lose meaning. This to me is aimed at achieving two public holidays in a year devoted to prayer.

I beg that the mover clarifies on this so that (Interjection)- I am addressing the clarification to the mover of the motion so that it is understood as we proceed with the debate.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, when the mover of this motion came to seek for my consent we agreed that she would not request for a public holiday because it has implications on the economy, on industry and it will cost the country. So, she is not asking for a public holiday but for a declaration of ordinary days of prayer at a particular time of the year for the nation. There is no public holiday involved.

MR NANDALA-MAFABI: Madam Speaker, I think we know very well a public holiday is a cost to Government. For anything that leads to a cost to Government, the Bill has to be brought by the Executive. I know the other colleague of mine is the Chairman of National Economy. First of all, the first day of the calendar year is 1^st January. That is a public holiday as it is now, but the last day of the calendar year is 31^st December. Sometimes it falls on a Friday and sometimes on a Saturday. If it falls on a working day, that means we shall not work and that is already a cost  (Interruption)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Nandala, I have informed you that there will be no public holiday in this matter. We shall pray on Friday with the Imam in the Mosque as we do all the time. On Saturday, we shall go with the SDAs as we do all the time. On Sunday, the Catholics go where they go and we shall go where we go [Mr Kyanjo: Point of order] - You are ordering the Speaker? Honourable members, we shall pray on the ordinary days we pray. There will be no public holiday. That is what I am telling you. There is no involvement of Article 93.

MR MABIKKE: Madam Speaker, together with the MP from Ruhama I also belong to the caucus of God. I seek clarification arising from their clarification. When we are debating in this House we must be very clear about matters we are debating on. The motion by the MP from Ruhama raises a lot of confusion (Interruption)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, the Member for Ruhama is a new Member. This is her first motion. In the debate we can amend it, but do not start saying it is defective and so on.

MR MABIKKE: Madam Speaker, I have a motion.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Motion to do what?

MR MABIKKE: Motion to amend.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Wait until other Members have contributed. You will amend. We are going to go step by step.

5.45
MR ABDLATIF SEBAGGALA (DP, Kawempe Division North, Kampala): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. Allow me to extend my thanks to the mover of the motion. I am going to talk as the Imam of this Parliament. I believe the cardinal objective for the motion is to cultivate a culture into ourselves of attending or dedicating ourselves to the Almighty, the Creator. I need some clarifications. We all know that in Uganda we have the various religious denominations. It is true that God has already set aside renown days for our prayers on various days: the Moslems have Friday and then the Christians Saturday and Sunday. Those were specifically set aside for us to go and pray.

Madam Speaker, we know in various constituencies, even amongst ourselves here, at times we rarely go and pray. If God Himself set aside days of prayer and others do not attend Sunday services or Friday services, then how about we setting aside our special days when we have not responded to days set aside by the Creator? This is spiritual decay amongst the leaders and also those who are led.

Madam Speaker, I believe that setting aside two special days will not really help us. I humbly request the mover of the motion and also all honourable colleagues, in your different religious denominations, what role have you played in order to sensitize your constituents about their need to belong to the Almighty God? How often have you responded to requests from your various religious leaders in as far as enhancing our spiritual lives is concerned? [Mr Toskin: Information.]. Please, I need it.

MR TOSKIN: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Thank you very much, colleague, for giving me this time to give you some information. The motion is seeking for a national day of prayer. What this means is that, you are specifically going to pray for the nation on that specific day. The motion is not seeking for a general prayer. If it is a general prayer, there are days dedicated for prayer. So, the motion is looking for a day when people will focus on praying for the various issues that affect the nation. Thank you very much.

MRS OKURUT: Thank you Madam Speaker and thank you colleague. I just want to draw the attention of Members of this House to the word corporate. When I heard the motion, this is what struck me. Somebody said the Christians have 25^th for Christmas, then there is Idd for the Moslems and Saturday for the Adventists. However, she is talking about corporate prayer, when everybody or those who want, together in a non-denominational prayer, get together and pray. So, when we are contributing, the word corporate is very important. Thank you for giving way, honourable member.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please wind up.

MR OKELLO-OKELLO: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I go to Church on Sunday. I do not know about other denominations; but in the Church where I go, we pray for our President, the first family, our country, Northern Uganda - we pray for the entire nation! I do not know the difference between this one  (Laughter)- and the one we are asking for. I thank you.

MR SEBAGGALA: Thank you, honourable colleagues, for that useful information you have given me.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I believe as Members of Parliament we have an important role to play in cultivating a culture in us, of responding to Gods call and being religious in our various religious denominations. I propose that in order to cater for hon. Musevenis interest, the government has all the powers to announce, in consultation with our religious leaders, that maybe the fourth Sunday in April is our national day for the Christians. For the Muslim community, we can also have a Friday and we dedicate and announce it. We can give these days a lot of publicity as special Sundays or special Fridays, and then we call it a day. I thank you Madam Speaker.

5.54
MS REBECCA AMUGE (Independent, Woman Representative, Lira): Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, I would like to support this motion. I heard hon. Janet Museveni mentioning that she knew she was taking a risk, and then she said she knew many were going to complain. She also said that much as we are going to complain, she believes the country has gone wrong. I want to thank you for the spirit of humility, for accepting that the country has some problems.

Madam Speaker, look at our motto, at the anthem, the daily prayers we always have in Parliament, the different fellowships we have in this Parliament, yet people still ask, Are you joining the dirty game? Meaning politics. Could it be that we are the ones who are dirty or is it the politics, which is dirty? I think what could have gone wrong with this country is for us not to have unity, a spirit of nationalism, a feeling that we are all Ugandans.

I would like to share with the Members that before I went to primary one, there was a problem in Ankole where my father worked for very many years. I got lost for two months and I stayed in Igara. People did not know that I was from another district because I could speak the language. I am telling you, I was brought back without being hurt. Two months in Igara, sleeping in banana plantations! That kind of Uganda is the Uganda we need again.

In most cases, when you mention the name of somebody else who does not come from the part of the country you come from, you find that the attitude is negative. I want to give a typical example. We are in a multi-party political dispensation, but if you look at the way our politics is moving, those ones who are on this side seem to come from one area and those who are on that side seem to come from one area too. Those who do not come from that area but are sitting there are like foreigners. It is the same with this side. Can we continue like that [Prof. Kamuntu: Point of order.]- Hon. Kamuntu, no please.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is a point of order.

PROF. KAMUNTU: Madam Speaker, I want to seek your ruling as to whether it is in order for the distinguished Member on the Floor to imply that the Members on this side come from one area. Is it in order to imply this, when there is a distinguished Member from Kooki, from Kampala, Kaberamaido, Makindye, Masaka, Kitgum and then Kasese? Is this one area she is referring to? Is she in order?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, the Constitution allows us to associate in any way we want. If you land on this side, you land there. If you land on this side, you land there. But you should not say that all these people look alike and the ones who are there are strangers.

MS AMUGE: Madam Speaker, I thank you so much. Hon. Kamuntu is our family friend. He even once paid my fees, and he knows that unity is important. What I am driving at is that, we need reconciliation in this country so that whatever we do moves us towards leaving us one person or one people of this country.

Madam Speaker, I want to remember what happened in this country, for example, what happened in Barlonyo. I do not want us to use it as a sense of sentiment or intrigue whenever we remember. Let it be like it happened to all Ugandans. It has also happened to other parts of the country. I insist that whatever we do, if we do not give peace and reconciliation a national face, it is still going to be a problem. I, therefore, support this motion and say that let the theme move towards national peace and reconciliation. We must all support this motion. Thank you so much.

5.59
MR SANJAY TANNA (Independent, Tororo Municipality, Tororo): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would also like to thank the honourable member from Ruhaama for moving this motion. I have read through the script of the motion over four times. It is spiritually very touching. I accept it entirely and I support the motion. However, allow me to make a few observations.

A few years back, a very prominent politician in this country was given a very plausible welcome when he had just come back after being convicted in the United States of America. On his arrival, there was a queue of people welcoming him back, very powerful people inclusive. The problem is not only spiritual, Madam Speaker, it is also cultural. Our culture is eroding.

Formerly in the eastern region, where I come from, the elders of the community every evening used to sit us down and give us guidance. They used to teach us on the ways of life. Today that has disappeared. Therefore, I would also like to tell the Minister in charge of Integrity and Ethics that there is cultural erosion; that is the core.

Everybody is talking about corruption. You cannot blame an institution or an individual for corruption but the mind-frame of the people today. When they see somebody living in a powerful house, irrespective of how he got the wealth, he is praised as a powerful person. If you see somebody driving a powerful car, irrespective of how he got the wealth, he is respected as a powerful person.

When I grew up as a child, it was very important that the background of that person be scrutinized. If his wealth was ill-gotten, then he was never given a high podium in society. Today we have got the occasion, the honourable member of Ruhama has provided for a debate on spiritualism. On page 5 she says, How do we conceptualise corruption in a society and that is what I am trying to address myself to. Theft, fraud, is abominable! The Moslem will say it is haram (Khamr), but we continuously praise the corrupt and the rich who have got their wealth in an ill-gotten manner. The moral fibres of our society have degenerated. Therefore, we have two ministries: one, the Ministry of National Guidance and secondly the Ministry of Ethics and Integrity.

I would like to request, through you, that a programme be drawn up most especially through the schools. Our children should be refocused and the quality of education should be one where our culture is propagated, where our culture is brought forward. Corruption should be fought at the grassroots level.

I support the motion. Every Moslem is supposed to pray five times a day. We are supposed to pray on a daily basis. I can tell you, Madam Speaker, during my campaigns I used to pray almost every minute. (Laughter) You go and say, O God! Make me victorious. So, honourable members of this august House will definitely like this. As hon. Dombo said, all of us will testify to the reality that there is a supreme being. We are not objecting to the fact that our religions allow us to pray as often as possible, as the previous speakers have been saying, but the motion says that, can we have a focused prayer! Like I said, during the elections I was saying, O God! Make me victorious. That was a focus. Can we focus on a national theme and let that national theme be propagated. What do we want as a nation? That particular thing we want should be prayed for. God says, ask and you will be given. So, we must ask.

In summary, Madam Speaker, one day I read a quote although I cannot remember it verbatim. It talks about a man like me who was one day complaining to God and saying, O God, I wanted that pair of shoes. You have refused to give me money for that pair of shoes. After about ten minutes, God answered that prayer. Because he saw a man without feet, he realized straight away that he was better off at least than that person. In appreciation of what we have been given, and in appreciation of what we want, it is very important for us to decide on the forum and the method in which we want it to be done.

I would like to make a suggestion. We have a joint inter-religious council in this country, which encompasses all major religions in this country. We could use them. They have conducted prayers in the past, most especially for peace in the North. I support the motion and I request my colleagues to support this motion. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. (Applause).

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, now I will reduce the time to only two minutes. We are about to run out of power.

6.05
MRS ROSEMARY SENINDE, (NRM, Woman Representative, Wakiso): I thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Allow me to thank the mover of the motion, which is well thought-out. I would also like to thank my colleagues who are supporting the motion. I also support the motion. My colleagues have said most of things that I would have said, but I just want to lay emphasis on a few.

Madam Speaker, it is true this nation really needs a lot of prayers. We need to pray for our nation, to commit our country in the hands of God. When we talk of the many problems that have befallen this country, we talk of corruption day and night.

Our colleagues have all risen up to talk about corruption. The 9.8 people still living under poverty, I relate that to corruption. The HIV/AIDS we are suffering in this country probably is because of the immorality. I think an immoral person is a person who is shameless. People who are involved in corruption are shameless. People who are involved in raping and defiling our children are shameless.

Madam Speaker, there is the war in the North. We want to pray for the end of that war, but it is because of the shameless people involved in it. Because of this, I do entirely agree with the mover of the motion that we really need to commit our country to praying.

I would like to suggest, just as my colleagues have pointed out, that having two days may to some extent be misunderstood as being meaningless or something like that. I do not want to be misunderstood. Just as my colleagues have pointed out, probably let us have one weekend. We can then commit that weekend; it could be Friday, Saturday and a Sunday, and come up with a theme. Every year a theme can be set to commit ourselves to that prayer.

Finally, one of our colleagues pointed out that actions speak more than words. It is true; committing ourselves to prayer without action may be meaningless. I would like to appeal to all of us and the government too to also try very hard as a nation to pray for everything we do. If I decided, for example, to pray 24 hours a day to get rich, I may never get rich if I do not go to work. I should pray to God for help and be enlightened on how to get riches.

We are fighting corruption; but we must unite with Government to put some action to end corruption. We are fighting HIV/AIDS; let us try to help our people to ensure that we really put this in action and try to end it.

Madam Speaker, because of time let me stop here. I thank you very much and I strongly support the motion. I hope we shall come up with a good resolution.

6.10
MR ISRAEL SEBUNYA, (NRM, Kyadondo County North, Wakiso): Madam Speaker, it is about past 6.00 Oclock. I have read this very well. I took a bit of time reading it. Certainly, I do not want to speak for anybody else because I do not know what other people do, but I read this thesis and I certainly realised that I for one need these prayers. (Laughter) I support this motion.

6.11
MS SYLVIA SINABULYA (NRM, Woman Representative, Mityana): I stand to support this motion. I want to begin by thanking the Member for Ruhama for bringing this motion and I implore my colleagues to support it. I believe that the founding fathers of our country did not want our country separated from God. That is why our motto says, For God and My Country and the first stanza of our National Anthem begins with the line, O Uganda, may God uphold thee. That is why when we are taking offices, we swear by God or by Allah. I would be very surprised if any of us who took oath by the name of Allah or God oppose this motion.

Madam Speaker, a number of colleagues have said that we belong to different faiths and pray on different days. I understand this motion as saying that we need a special day and it may not be a public holiday. The 1^st of January is a public holiday, for example, and it is not for Muslims nor is it for Christians. If such a day is declared a day of national prayer, and all of us go to our different Churches and Mosques and pray for our country, I think that would serve the purpose for which this motion is meant.

Madam Speaker, as Ugandans we spend a lot of time on many occasions dwelling on things, which divide us. Many times when listening to radio or reading newspapers, you hear people taking a lot of time talking about our parties, different religions, marginalisation. You hear them saying so and so is marginalizing us. These are things, which divide us Ugandans. I believe we need such a day to forget anything about division, to forget our tribes, our different religions, and to think as Ugandans and pray for our nation.

Finally, Madam Speaker, in support of this motion, I would like to say that this day will be very beneficial to us. Like the mover of the motion said, we have so many issues and challenges, which our nation is facing. On such a day, our focus should be put on such challenges.

Madam Speaker, our country lacks civic education. Because of this, we do not have a defined minimum package of values, things which every Ugandan would think, fight and die for. I believe the beginning of identifying values for our country would be prayer. If you take prayer as the first value, then we could be able to identify all the other values that are necessary for us to be together as Ugandans. I support this motion.

6.15
MRS MARY OKURUT, (NRM, Woman Representative, Bushenyi): Thank you, Madam Speaker. I stand to support the motion and I would like to make a plea to all my colleagues, please let us not politicize this motion. In life there are issues, which are above politics. If there is an issue that concerns women and the welfare of women that is above politics, whether you are NRM, FDC, UPC you should support that. This is above politics.

Madam Speaker, we have forgotten ourselves. Chinua Achebe says that we should find out where the rain began to beat us. This is what this motion seeks to do; where has the rain beaten us? When you go to Ethiopia, they have one day in a year to celebrate the new season. You find yellow flowers in all the streets. This is the same spirit except that this is higher; this is spiritual corporate prayer.

Madam Speaker, when most astronauts go into space, most of them come back and become evangelists. Why? It means that they see that there is something higher than them. I am not going to say much. I support the motion. Let us have that day of corporate prayer where the Moslems, Christians, Adventists and everybody come together.

As we say, let us get a theme. There might be issues, which may need fine-tuning in this motion. Let us fine-tune those issues, but let us have that day where we all together in unity get together, not because we are so desperate as one Member said, but it could also be thanksgiving. Madam Speaker -(Interruption)

MS NAKADAMA: Madam Speaker, the information I want to give my honourable colleague is that, we were created to praise God. God created the Sun, the Moon, the Earth and the Sky. He created all of us so that we can praise Him, but people always forget and praise God during difficult times. I would like to urge Members, let us praise God during happy and difficult times.

The information I want to give is that, this day we are proposing is a special day. If it is special, we know we are going for prayers. The mover of the motion has said that we have to also fast, but how are we going to fast we have different religions and we define fasting in different ways? When we talk of fasting, some people think that when you do not drink water you are fasting; some think that when you spend the whole day without eating, you are fasting. Therefore, I would like to suggest to the mover of the motion, and give information to the honourable members, when we are suggesting this special day, let us suggest a special way of fasting which can unite all of us. Thank you.

6.20
MR JORAM PAJOBO, (NRM, Workers Representative): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for allowing me to just say something about the motion. Before I say I support it, my worry was that it was going to be part of the holidays. Since it has been clarified that it will not be a public holiday, the most important thing is for us to repent first before we rush for prayers. If you are not repentant yourselves, you will not pray every time. Saturday and Sunday are the days people are supposed to go to Church mostly to pray but we fail to go.

The best thing is for us to humble ourselves to the Almighty God, repent, forget our sins and call for reconciliation in this country. Let us reconcile and forgive each other. Where I have wronged you, let me come and say I have wronged you. That will be the greatest relief for this country, and I think our country will come together.

Madam Speaker, before I sit down, I would like to leave you people with this great Bible verse, Zephaniah 1:14 and Zephaniah 2:1-2. I would like to read verse 1 and 2, which say: Gather together, gather together, nations without shame, before you are dispersed like chaff&. Let us gather together and pray to the Almighty God. Perhaps as a nation it will give us relief and our country will get cured. I, therefore, support the motion. Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Museveni Janet, you have heard various proposals trying to align this motion, do you mind if we hear some proposals now on amendments?

MRS MUSEVENI: Madam Speaker, I just thought I could thank all my colleagues for this support for this motion. I thought that most of the points raised were about methodology and they could be taken care of administratively. So, I thought I would just thank them for this overwhelming support of this motion. Thank you so much.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Mabikke Mike had some proposals for aligning so that we can satisfy all the shades of opinion.

6.24
MR MIKE MABIKKE (Independent, Makindye Division East, Kampala): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for this opportunity. I do support the motion moved by the honourable member for Ruhama, but with amendments. My amendments are based on the understanding that we are proposing two specials days of prayer, fasting and thanksgiving, which need not to be public holidays, and that these days must also be in line with our various denominational faiths. To that effect, without wasting time, I move that the last paragraph of this motion be amended as follows:

Now, therefore, this motion is moved that this House resolves as follows:

1. That the President of Uganda declares two national days of prayer, fasting and thanksgiving from among the designated days of prayer of the various religious denominations in Uganda.

2. That the leaders of the various religious denominations be consulted on the specific programmes of these days.

3. That all the people of Uganda observe these days and participate in all activities aimed at this end. I want to move, Madam Speaker.

MRS MUSEVENI: I agree with the first one, but for the second one I think we need to take care of it administratively, if that is okay with you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do you agree?

MR MABIKKE: Madam Speaker, the second amendment was that leaders of various religious denominations be consulted on the specific programming of these days. I am convinced that these leaders are stakeholders, and the matter being sensitive, we would like to move in tandem with religious leaders in Uganda.

MRS MUSEVENI: I think that is a detail that everybody cares about and we can still look at it administratively, without hurrying to do it right now and here.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: May I also remind the Members that we are just making a request. We are not yet directing. It has to go to the Cabinet then they consider it and come back to us. We are not directing them at this moment.

MR MABIKKE: I concede, Madam Speaker.

6.26
MR HUSSEIN KYANJO, (JEEMA, Makindye Division West, Kampala): I thank you very much, for giving me the opportunity to seek clarification from any Member, but more specifically from the mover of this motion.

Madam Speaker, the Almighty God, we profess, is one and alone but the practices are various and heterogeneous. There are those that are extremely rigid, which I want to draw the attention of this House to. One, you cannot follow the day that has been ordained by the Almighty and you levy a claim that you also have that same day ordained. You cannot give me Friday; you simply cannot! You cannot give me Idd Day; you just cannot! It is there.

Two, you cannot go into the month of Ramadan and say that you have told me to fast in Ramadan. The Koran, if you give me permission to quote, says, Kutibha aleiku musiyamu kama kutibha allarhazhina minu kabuli kum la-allah kum tatta kun, meaning it has been prescribed unto you to fast as indeed it were for those who were there before you, so that you fear the Almighty.

It is clean, smart and clear; you cannot come today, so many years after that, and you tell me that you have given me that day for fasting. There is a contradiction. It is difficult to say that we are going to fast during the fasting period of the Christians because it is not Ramadan. Likewise, the Christians will not be forced to fast during Ramadan because it is not their time. So, this day cannot be reconciled.

Another matter is about a new day that can be agreed upon as a day for prayer either inside or outside the other days. In our religion, for which I have sufficient knowledge, it is not allowed for anyone to bring anything new, an innovation, into the already set. I heard they were going to have consultations with other religious leaders. This is elementary knowledge to some of us. We have got sufficiently equipped answers for them. It is said in one of the sayings of the Prophet Mohammed, in one of the strongest Hadith that, Kullu mudahatin bidiha wakura bidhat zwalara wakuru zwalara finali, meaning every innovation is disallowed, and everything that is disallowed in religion is bidia (is criminal) and every crime has a sentence.

This, unfortunately, sounds like an arrangement to draw this House, which could be very unfortunate, into sitting here and beginning to make a loose theocracy. Dear Members, a theocracy is a system where rule (Interruption)

MR DOMBO: I thank the honourable member for giving that information. I wish to inform him that we have conducted national days and national functions like Independence Day, National Youth Day etc. All these days are not declared in the Koran or in the Bible, but we have invited religious leaders and they have blessed and glorified the presence of God on those days.

There is nothing in the Bible or in the Koran that prevents man from setting his time aside to glorify God. That is the only thing that we wish to propose in this House. The details of what the Bible and the Koran say are the administrative arrangements that the mover of the motion talked about. Those ones will be catered for by the people who know better than us what the provisions of the Bible and Koran are. We are only saying, can we set time aside for us to glorify God in a manner that is above what we have been doing on the usual days? I thank you.

MR KYANJO: Madam Speaker, I thank the honourable member. He has simply assisted me in telling this House that there is time for everything. He is just giving me assistance in that line.

Madam Speaker, there is a matter that I actually take as an offence. It is very insulting to ask for extra time when some of us sneak out of this august House as if we are going for a short call. We have to get out five times a day from this Chamber without your notice, Madam Speaker, for that very particular purpose.

MS KIBOIJANA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rose to give information to the honourable member who was on the Floor. One time I travelled with a group of whites and they joked and said that when God was creating the Universe, He asked the Americans and the whites what they wanted. They answered that they wanted to be the masters and the rulers, the scientists who would rule this world. It was granted to them. When He reached the East, He asked them what they wanted. They asked for permission to go below the ground to explore what was there and they found oil, which up to now they are using and they are rich. When it reached the Africans and He asked them what they wanted, they said they were merely escorting the whites and those in the East. They ended up without much from the share of God.

We have got the chance now. I am surprised that my brother of the other faith wants to block us from using this chance, when we have reached the point of even exploring oil in our Ugandan nation. I beg that he withdraws in the good interest of our nation building.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Kyanjo, I am aware that you have to pray five times a day. That is why one of the first facilities provided by the Speakers Office is your prayer room here in the Parliament. It is the first one that we provided because we know you need to pray five times a day.

MR KYANJO: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just want to conclude, and I will go back to what hon. Kaddunabbi said. The call by Mama Janet is to recognise the need to look into the direction of the Almighty. It requires space and time. Some of us do not have enough space and time to do that thing primarily. So, we cannot stand here and begin asking for the extra time when the primary time is not available. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable members, we are talking about the amendment by hon. Mabikke. I just want to address the amendment.

MS KABONESA: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I totally support the motion, but I was wondering whether the mover would accept to delete the word fasting. Like hon. Nakadama said, in different faiths, for example, the Catholics, we have specific times for fasting. It is during the season of Lent when we fast. The Moslems also have a specific time when they fast. I do not know so much about the Protestants, but I also think they have a specific time and way in which they fast. I would be happy if she said, A national day of prayer at the beginning of each calendar year, other than saying, A national day of prayer and fasting. Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let us first deal with this one. You could see that some Members took objection to the issue of fasting. Is there a problem with removing it? I want to draw your attention to the submission of hon. Nakadama, hon. Kaddunabbi, hon. Kyanjo, specifically on the issue of fasting. I think they are saying they have a problem with being asked to fast at the time that is not Ramadhan. They say have their own time of fasting. Is there an objection? I think that will make Members comfortable. We are talking about a day of prayer and then the day of thanksgiving. Let us remove the fasting. We can fast ourselves but prayer and thanksgiving we do together. So, I put the question.

MS NAKADAMA: Madam Speaker, I want to say something about fasting.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: But you have already said it.

MS NAKADAMA: No, I thought we should just get a corporate way of fasting so that we can all fast on that day. We should not remove it because it is good. It is a way of reconciliation and praising God. I was suggesting that we should not remove it, but let us make it uniform for all of us.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, but you cannot make it uniform. Hon. Kyanjo has said that he cannot fast at any other time except that declared in the Ramadhan.

MR SEBAGGALA: Madam Speaker, given the importance of this motion and the fact that we are running out of power, can we not refer the motion and conclude it on Tuesday when everybody is here. It is very important.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, honourable members. As I was sitting here, I was actually wondering whether we could not ask a few of us to sit and write the final text out of all the arguments, so that on Tuesday we come and pass it. There is no disagreement; it is only just modalities here and there.

The committee will comprise hon. Museveni, hon. Mabikke, hon. Matia Nsubuga, hon. Egunyu, hon. Kyanjo and hon. Dombo. Please, let us have a small committee because we want this to be satisfactory to all the religions. We have so many and we must respect other peoples religions. So, that committee chaired by Mrs Museveni (Interruption)

MR DOMBO: Madam Speaker, this House has the privilege of hosting the only person who believes in the Hindu religion. May I propose that he becomes a Member of that committee so that we incorporate most of the wishes? Hon. Tanna.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay. Is there any other religion, which we have not catered for? There is Hon. Menhya for the Seventh Day Adventists. If you could convene between now and Tuesday; it is a very important matter and I want everybody to go home satisfied. Thank you very much. Honourable members, we adjourn to Tuesday at 2.00 p.m. Thank you.

(The House rose at 6.40 p.m. and adjourned until Tuesday, 18April 2006 at 2.00 p.m.)