Wednesday, 16 February 2005
 
Parliament met at 2.45 p.m. in Parliament House, Kampala.
 
PRAYERS
 
(The Speaker, Mr Edward Ssekandi, in the Chair.)
 
The House was called to order.
 
COMMUNICATION FROM THE CHAIR
 
THE SPEAKER: I just want to welcome you to this meeting; you are welcome.
 
2.47
DR FRANK NABWISO (Kagoma County, Jinja): Mr Speaker, I am raising a matter of great concern to a number of people particularly in Busoga region. Recently when the President was on tour in Busoga, an impression was created that Kaliro would become a district in the near future. The people applauded that and they are very excited about it. But I think it is extremely important that Government gives us, as parliamentarians, the assurance that this is going to be done, that steps are being taken to create the district, and that the necessary resources are being assembled through our budget system, not only to create Kaliro district, but even other areas which have been promised districts like Koboko, the two Tororo districts and Ibanda.
 
May I get that assurance from the Rt. hon. Prime Minister or the Minister of Local Government that this is going to happen, and that the necessary resolution of Parliament will be passed before these districts are created. We do not want to promise people air; we want to make sure that this happens.
 
2.48
THE PRIME MINISTER (Prof. Apolo Nsibambi): Thank you, Mr Speaker. There is a sector minister in charge of that matter, and therefore I have to direct him to answer that question within four days from today. But I wish also to add that if His Excellency, the President, makes a directive, unless it is injurious for us to persuade him to change it, we must comply. I thank you, Mr Speaker.
 
REV. KEFA SSEMPANGI (Ntenjeru County South, Kayunga): Mr Speaker, I want to rise on a matter of national concern. Some time, back a select committee was set up on issues of pornography. I do not think that, that committee has had a chance to report, but it seems to be overtaken by events. Currently there is this play, which is to take place on the (Interjections)- Mr Speaker, the title is pornographic and very obscene, and I would not have raised this point if it was not so. This play comes under the guise of women liberation (Interruption)
 
MS KABAKUMBA MASIKO: Mr Speaker, is it in order for the honourable member to keep referring to this play? There are so many plays including Embaga ya Kony and some of us have paid to see such. Which specific play is he referring to? Is he in order not to mention the exact play he wants us to discuss?
 
THE SPEAKER: Why dont you seek clarification? Can you clarify please?
 
REV. SSEMPANGI: It is so ugly to be mentioned in public, and that is the very concern, Mr Speaker.
 
THE SPEAKER: You see, hon. member, you will not get the assistance required if the matter is so vague. If you cannot -(Interruption)
 
REV. SSEMPANGI: Mr Speaker, the play is called Vagina Monologues and there have been some revelations -(Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: What do you want? Is it a question?
 
REV SSEMPANGI: I want to know - first I want to say that this play is absolutely obnoxious and there is an analysis excerpt in The Sunday Vision, which says that this play is an induction for our young people, especially the girls and women to start the practice of worshipping -(Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: Hon. member, what do you want?
 
REV. SSEMPANGI: It is written in the papers here that Government has condemned the title of this play. My question is, we have a whole Minister of Ethics and Integrity, what can government do? Government can have an injunction to stop this play being seen by the public.
 
THE SPEAKER: Okay, can the Minister please answer?
 
THE MINISTER OF STATE, ETHICS AND INTEGRITY (Mr Tim Lwanga): Mr speaker, I have just walked in because I had gone to the car to get some documents, and I do not really know what the question was (Interjections)- Well, thank you very much - The Monologues. As everybody is aware, we have got a Media Council, which is charged with the mandate to censor and audit videos, films, plays - and the intense of the videos, plays and cinemas for public consumption. Under this particular circumstance where we are faced with the problems of The Monologues, the Media Council is taking care of it. Thank you very much.
 
THE SPEAKER: No, you see this is an organization, which cannot come to the House to give us an answer. There must be a Minister responsible for it. What is the position?
 
MR LWANGA: Mr Speaker, as far as the Ministry of Ethics and Integrity is concerned, the play, Vagina Monologues, is not going to take place.
 
THE SPEAKER: Okay. But honourable members, you know the practice, that if you want to raise any matter after the communication, you should have consulted the Speaker before you raise it. Hon. Nabwiso and Rev. Kefa Ssempangi also came to me, this is what we decided should happen.
 
2.56
MS SARAH KIYINGI NAMUSOKE (Woman Representative, Rakai): Mr Speaker, this is another matter of public concern. (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: Yes, exactly, you should always come to see me. But to balance, because it is the two honourable members, for gender matters I can allow you. But in future, please see the Speaker before you raise this issue. You are now free to.
 
MS NAMUSOKE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is a matter of public concern. Yesterday I was listening to the BBC network Africa news and the Army spokesperson, Maj. Bantariza, was put on air telling the world that the UPDF is recruiting children to fight in the Army, especially, children who were in the LRA.
 
Mr Speaker, these children have come home, they have been taken for rehabilitation and they are taking them back to the front! I was shocked to read that. That is contrary to what the Minister of Information said when he was being interviewed about the United Nations allegation that the Uganda Government was using children as soldiers. The Minister of Information was denying and saying, Show us the evidence, but at the same time the UPDF spokesperson was on BBC telling the world that, yes we are doing it.
 
The reason he gave was even most absurd. He said, You see, what is the worse evil? These are children anyway; some of them are even 17, and then what is the difference? They are just one year away from 18 and they are lingering in the villages doing nothing, so they are going to be idle. What we do we is we take them back to the front.
 
Now, can government tell us; has the United Nations all along been telling us the truth that the UPDF spokesperson has now come out to acknowledge, or should we believe the government spokesperson, namely, the Minister of Information, who says that this is not true? Who should we believe? The government is signatory to the protocols - we are committing ourselves not to have children as soldiers, but the UPDF spokesperson said that we do. Which is which? Thank you.
 
2.59
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (Mr Amama Mbabazi): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, it is true that the Ministry of Defence spokesman, Maj. Bantariza, was quoted on the BBC as having said that the UPDF has recruited (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: No, let him develop his point; you can come in later. Please develop your point then.
 
MR AMAMA MBABAZI: Mr Speaker, even when they put you on air in voice, it is quoting you; it is a matter of English. Maj. Bantariza was quoted on the BBC as having said that the UPDF has recruited children below 18 into the UPDF, who had been LRA fighters. Actually I am going to issue a statement in the course of today to say that this is not so.
 
Mr Speaker, as I said in my statement to this august House two days ago, it is true that the UPDF has recruited about a battalion of former LRA combatants. These are people either we captured or who surrendered, who had been in LRA. In this recruitment, we strictly adhere to the law. The law requires that we do not recruit people below the age of 18. The recruitment of ex-LRA combatants was in complete conformity with the rules. Therefore, there is nobody, to my knowledge, who was below 18 at the time of recruitment.  
 
I have asked Maj. Bantariza to tell me exactly what he meant and he is getting the full recording. He is asking BBC to give him the full recording of the interview because what he meant apparently was that many of these children had been abducted and were children when they were in combat with LRA. The fact that they were in combat and maybe missed school and things like that was not a hindrance to recruitment into the UPDF if they were now qualified by age and were willing, because for anyone to be recruited into the UPDF, he/she must volunteer to serve.
 
Therefore, Mr Speaker, I want to make a clear and categorical statement to this Parliament and to this nation and to the world as we have done to the United Nations, that UPDF does not, it has not, and it will not recruit children below the age of 18 because the law does not allow it. Thank you. (Applause)
 
MR AGGREY AWORI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. In respect to the honourable Minister of Defences answer, I had come to see you in the Chambers to move a motion on the same matter, but your wise counsel was that I wait until the Minister responsible for Defence comes up with a substantive and categorical statement on the matter. Now that he has fulfilled that condition, is it possible for me to move a motion on the matter? He has made a substantive and categorical statement that UPDF does not, will not, and has not recruited anybody under age.
 
The purpose of my motion was to elicit more information from the government and also in the course of the debate, provide information more or less to substantiate the allegation that indeed there are children within UPDF, formerly rebels of under age who are now carrying UPDF sanctioned arms.
 
Mr Speaker, when and if you permit me to move the motion, I can also come up with an actual statement, verbatim, in writing by the Ministers spokesperson. So, for the honourable minister to come to the august House and give a statement, which is at variance with his spokesperson, notwithstanding the difference in rank, but the very fact that the spokesperson has repeatedly on international media confirmed that indeed in the deployment of UPDF certain children of under age are carrying arms. Over and above that, the policy of the government regarding the former rebels, especially of NRA, to be absorbed within UPDF runs contrary to the procedure of recruitment in the Army. So, Mr Speaker (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: Honourable member, the minister is agreeing with you that there should be no deployment of these youth in the Army; dont you think it is better for you to put to him facts in order to elicit facts from him in a form a question, say isnt it true that you are having this, isnt not true you have such people? I think that would be better than the motion because he is going to support the motion, which you intend to move and that will be the end of the matter. You will not get the details you want because he is agreeing with your motion. Well, it is up to you really.
 
MR AWORI: Mr Speaker, this motion has a dual purpose, not only to elicit information categorically as the minister has attempted to do, but also to assist this republic to make it known to the world that Parliament as an organ of the state cannot condone that type of situation in case it obtains on the ground. But, Mr speaker, as I said, with your permission I can come up with information to corroborate what has been said. So, procedurally permit me to proceed with the motion (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: I think you should use tomorrow, the private members day, and bring the motion with the information because we want to benefit from the information, rather than rubber-stamping a general debate on a matter where he is going to concede. Dont you really see that?
 
MRS DORA BYAMUKAMA: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Committee on Equal Opportunities has considered this issue at length. I want to get clarification from the Minister about the issue of the age because when you look at the Constitution under Article 34(4) of the rights of children, it says, Children are entitled to be protected from social or economic exploitation and shall not be employed in or required to perform work that is likely to be hazardous or interfere with their education or to be harmful to their health or physical, mental, spiritual, moral or social development. 
 
Then under 34(5), it says, For purposes of clause (4) of this Article, children shall be persons under the age of 16 years. 
 
I heard the Minister talk about 18 years; can he please clarify as to the correct age?
 
MR MBABAZI: I thank the honourable member. The 18 years is in the Uganda Peoples Defence Forces (UPDF) Act. Of course, whereas it is true that UPDF Act - Well I am surprised that the Chairperson of the Legal and Parliamentary Committee (Interruption)
 
MR AWORI: Mr Speaker, you are the one running the proceedings of the august House. Is it in order for my good friend, the Minister of Defence, to engage in unauthorized exchange of information with a member who does not have the floor?
 
THE SPEAKER: The member should contribute by addressing the Chair.
 
MR MBABAZI: I apologize, Mr Speaker. I was saying that 18 years is under the Uganda Peoples Defence Forces Act, and of course, even under the Constitution in the definition Article 257, child is defined as anyone below the age of 18, not 16 (Interruption)
 
MR BEN WACHA: Mr Speaker, I see in the Order Paper that we are in the process of enacting a Bill called UPDF Bill, 2003; it is a Bill, not an amendment Bill. I also know that there is an Act called the NRA Act. What is the Minister specifically talking about?
 
THE SPEAKER: I think when he reacted in the way he did, he was thinking in terms of the Constitution, which we made in 1995, where existing laws have to be modified to conform to the new constitutional order and NRA ceased to exist and UPDF came. So, when you are reading that Act, which was meant for National Resistance Army, you read it as if it is UPDF Act -(Interjections)- Well, that is how you interpret the Constitution.
 
MR MBABAZI: Now that hon Ben Wacha came out, I think I can say what I wanted to say before; that I was rather surprised that the Chairperson of the Rules committee does not know that there is Uganda peoples Defence Forces Act, and in fact there has never been an NRA Act. There was an NRA Statute, and if you look under the revised laws of Uganda, you will find a specific Act called UPDF Act. This is for the information of the Chairperson of Rules Committee. (Laughter)
 
THE SPEAKER: It is okay. Can we go to the substance of the (Interruption)
 
MR MBABAZI: So, that is really the answer to honourable Dora Byamukama, that under that Act, the age is 18; and in fact in the interpretation Article 257, child is anyone below 18 years. So under Article 34, which the hon. member read, it is specific to those actions where a child is defined within the confines of that Article 216. Otherwise, the Act of Parliament consistent with this Constitution, the age is 18. Thank you.
 
MR OMODI OKOT: Thank you, Mr Speaker. At the moment there is a big problem in this country of registration of births and even of deaths. Indeed, it is now very difficult to determine the age of a person, especially now that leaders do not even take care of that. I would like to understand from the Minister how they are handling the matter of the age of these children in the absence of the exercise, which is going on now, because there is a problem and we are indeed discussing these in the Uganda Parliamentary Forum for Children with the authorities concern. But how is the Army managing the record of births, the record of age of children and so on? How is the Army handling this?
 
MR MBABAZI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to answer hon. Omodi Okot. Of course I am not a medical doctor as everyone knows, but every recruitment by UPDF goes through a clearly defined process, and one of the processes is to determine the physical fitness of the individuals subject to recruitment, including ascertainment of their age.
 
It is true that sometimes people may look 18 when they are really younger, and there are those who look 14 when they are 24. So, it is important that we have a medical doctor who has the means and the knowledge to determine the age of the person even in the absence of a birth certificate. So, I am very confident of the system we employ to determine the ages of the people we recruit. Thank you.
 
3.17
MR ODONGA OTTO (Aruu County, Pader): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker (Interjection)- Mr Speaker, can I be protected from Prof. Mondo Kagonyera?
 
THE SPEAKER: You are.
 
MR ODONGA OTTO: Mr Speaker, I was in my constituency for the last 10 days until yesterday, and I just want to raise an issue of urgent importance. But first of all I want to say I had a very good time. After the previous incident of Acholi-Bur, the soldiers ears are pulled up and they even guaranteed me additional security even when I chose to sleep in the camps. So, that one is a little bit of compliment, which may go to honourable Amama Mbabazi.
 
But on a more sad note, Mr Speaker, out of the 11 rallies I addressed, I learnt this morning that all the executives on LC I, LC II and LC III of Kilak sub-county have been rounded up by the DPC on the orders of the DISO. Some of those who have fled are already in Lira and Kitgum, and their biggest crime is attending my rally. I have been talking at length this morning to the DPC and to the security agencies; it is a very alarming situation.
 
Mr Speaker, I want to bring to your notice that security operatives have failed to distinguish between the regime and the state to the extent that any person who goes there in the name of any party, be it UPC, NRM/O, should anyone register his or her name in your books, they will be arrested immediately. So, the security operatives have turned out to be members of NRM/O.
 
I know a case where a group of youth who went to collect signatures for UPC were tied like cattle and matched through the camps by security operative. They warned that anyone found collecting signatures for other parties without permission from the security agencies would be arrested. This must be the last time and it should serve as a warning to other people that we do not want other parties apart from NRM/O.
 
To make matters worse, the RDC of Pader, Mr Opira Sylvester, has gone ahead to tell the people of Pader that should they vote for President Museveni or support the third term, they are going to remove the UPDF forces away from the camps and leave people to face Kony. So, there is too much intimidation from the security operatives, and I want the Minister of Defence or the Prime Minister to tell this House whether we can issue a circular to all RDCs and DISOs on how they should execute their roles as we head towards a multiparty political system. People even coming to attend my rallies after two hours because they had been warned not to have anything to do with the opposition.
 
After the incident of Acholi-bur, unless I can be guaranteed by the state that my people will be protected and those who were arrested last evening can all be released, I am destined to cause a very big problem because we cannot operate like that. I want the Minister of Defence to use the good image the UPDF has exhibited, especially after the Acholi-Bur incidences so that we can deal with the RDCs and security operatives who have turned out to be NRM/O supporters. They are not even working to combat rebellion.
 
As for me, no one will block my rally again. This is a warning; no one will block my rally, I would rather die or else nothing will go on. I am so disheartened, and the people of Kilak, who could even be listening now, want to know whether the camp commandant, the LC III executives who attended my rallies will be released in the course of the day.
 
MR JOHNSON MALINGA: Mr Speaker, it is very sad to learn that our Resident District Commissioners have come to fight the work of Parliament. It is not the first time we are hearing District Commissioners issuing warnings to members of other parties. Under Article 203 of our Constitution, Parliament is mandated to prescribe the roles of Resident District Commissioners. Now that we are getting into a transition period, Mr Speaker, shall I request that we prescribe the roles that the Resident District Commissioners are going to play in relation to party politics?
 
MR ODONGA OTTO: So, Mr Speaker, my specific request is, can the Leader of Government Business or the Minister of Defence tell this House that they can tentatively issue circulars to all RDCs and security operatives, the GISOs, DISOs, to adhere to what we Members of Parliament and to where the country is heading to as far as party politics is concerned?
 
CAPT. DAVID MATOVU: Mr Speaker, I thank you. Of course it is a serious matter, but I want the indulgence of this Parliament. We have in place the Select Committee probing the Acholi-Bur incidence and I have seen their programme, they will be proceeding to that area from 19th up to Wednesday. Couldnt it really help us to look at that incidence also and capture it to give us a picture, because I would not want immediately Parliament to condemn wholesale? You never know, we need to know exactly what happened. So, Mr Speaker, I wish to request that we mandate this Committee to capture that incidence as they move around in that region or in Pader. I thank you.
 
THE SPEAKER: But honourable members, as I indicated to you - you can answer that one so that (Interjection)- He has finished and the Minister is replying.
 
3.25
MR OMARA ATUBO (Otuke County, Lira): Mr Speaker, I think the summary of what honourable Odonga Otto is saying really may come to a very important matter, which some of us have been talking about since 1995 Constitution was promulgated - the new role of the NRA as UPDF under the new constitutional order as an independent, non-partisan, nationalistic, patriotic Army as contained in the Constitution. I think as we now move towards a transition, and as these parties blossom and spread, the role of the UPDF with its historical link to NRA, which still celebrates its historical day and they are reminded where they have come from with their leaders every year, cannot just be brushed aside. I think this is a matter to be addressed. Is it loyal to a particular leader, to a particular Movement, to a particular political party, or does it also cover other political opposition groups?
 
People are suffering because of this mentality - It is not the whole Army, for goodness sake, it is not all the officers; it is not the policy of the Army, but there are individuals. A case in point is where one Lieutenant in Otuke consistently drinks with the people and says, This Omara Atubo must never go back to Parliament. We shall use other means to ensure that he is not re-elected. But I brush it aside.
 
Even during the 2001 election, on the day before elections - the case is in court - the Commander in the area just opened up the Army the way you open for cows in the kraal and said, Go and beat everybody in Orum to ensure that nobody votes for Omara Atubo. It is there in court. I think this is a very serious matter, Mr Speaker; the role of the Army in the politics of this country must be addressed squarely. In fact I was going to say that immediately we pass the UPDF Bill, we are going to raise a substantive motion on that matter, and I will be one of those moving it.
 
2.28
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (Mr Amama Mbabazi): Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I thank the honourable members who have raised these questions. Hon. Odonga Otto has painted a contradictory picture because he says he has been there for quite a few days in his constituency and he was able to move and carry out his work without hindrance, and of course you all know that UPDF is everywhere. It is the first time I am hearing about the arrest of some people in his constituency and I undertake, Mr Speaker, to find out if this is true; and if so, why? I have heard honourable Omara Atubo and his point and I will wait for his Motion to debate it.
 
But on the question of professionalism of the UPDF, the fact that there is tolerance of everybody, whether they support Government or not, cannot surely be in question because the UPDF has demonstrated very clearly that it uses its force against those who act in breach of the Constitution, and therefore they act in defence of the Constitution. They act against those who threaten the stability of the country, not because of their political opinions, because if that was to be the case we know even in this House there are many who would have been victims of UPDF.
 
Mr Speaker, UPDF has conducted itself very clearly in the matter of the fight against terrorism in the North, and the way we have treated enemies we have captured in battle is very well known and has been commended and applauded by the world, and particularly the people of the North. May I take this opportunity, Mr Speaker, to inform this House that today Brig. Sam Kolo surrendered to UPDF. (Applause) He came into the hands of UPDF about 97 minutes ago.
 
Mr Speaker, as you know, Government has been having a dialogue with the LRA. The President had declared a ceasefire last December and part of November. This ceasefire ended at the end of December because we believed that the LRA was taking military advantage of the ceasefire. Although the ceasefire ended and the operations resumed against the LRA, the dialogue continued under the leadership of hon. Dr Ruhakana Rugunda and being initiated and mediated by Mrs Betty Bigombe, as I said in my statement on Tuesday.
 
Around 2nd or 3rd of this month the President declared another 18 days of ceasefire in a designated zone in that area. These 18 days were supposed to give an opportunity to the LRA leadership to meet to consider the Government proposals on the peaceful resolution of the problem they may have. These 18 days expire on the 22nd of this month. Mr Speaker, the LRA did meet to consider this matter. Joseph Kony issued orders yesterday that the leadership, which was in Uganda under Vincent Otti, should travel to Sudan and join him. Vincent Otti did protest because he said, Look, we have considered this matter over and over again. We were given 18 days, which are about to expire, let us take a decision, we either go for dialogue or we reject it.
 
Anyway, to cut a long story short, there was disagreement and Kony insisted that they go to Sudan. Sam Kolo refused. Therefore, there was a disagreement and Vincent Otti ordered for the execution of Sam Kolo. Sam Kolo escaped and our forces were able to make contact with him. They detected where he was, he was given sufficient support and protection until they got to him, as I said, not long ago.
 
Meanwhile, Vincent Otti, in the belief that Sam Kolo had been killed, rang Mrs Betty Bigombe and told her that Sam Kolo had been killed, but that they were still interested in talks. Vincent Otti said this because he was on the move from Kilak hills where they had been hiding - towards the Sudan border. He was moving as if to go to the zone, which had been designated for this ceasefire. If Vincent Otti goes to the zone, the ceasefire will be respected by the Uganda Peoples Defence Forces. If he is trying to use this to join Kony in Sudan, our forces are fully operational all around that zone.
 
This statement was to give you this information and I conclude by saying that we shall treat Sam Kolo like we treated Brig. Banya, like we treated Acellam - these are people we captured, like we have treated Kamuduli who surrendered. If we can treat people who have been engaged in terrorism, who have been opposed to this government for the last 19 years like that, why should we treat hon. Omara Atubo, who is a colleague here our differences not withstanding, differently? So, this is to give assurances to all those who have opinions: please, enjoy the freedom we fought for; the National Resistance Movement fought for freedom for people to express themselves and do it without fear or favour. Thank you.
 
MR ODONGA OTTO: Mr Speaker, I want to enquire about the issue of circulars to Resident District Commissioners and District Internal Security Organization. Could someone make a statement on that, because there are large and they are very dangerous - probably the Leader of Government Business?
 
MR MBABAZI: Mr Speaker, I forgot that hon. Aggrey Awori surrendered, as you know (Laughter)
 
MR AWORI: Mr Speaker, I cannot deny that at some stage in my political life I had serious differences with this regime where my honourable colleague works. But at no given time did I make any military contact with my colleague. I do not recall any period during by turbulent political life when I was captured or surrendered to any force or whatsoever. Is he in order to mislead the august House?
 
THE SPEAKER: Those are facts of which I am not aware, so I cannot make a decision.
 
MR MBABAZI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. One day I will give the details.
 
The Resident District Commissioners, honorable members, are obviously government and public officials and as such they are supposed to handle the people in the areas of their operation objectively; and those are the instructions they have. The Resident District Commissioners do not have instructions to (Interruption)
 
MR KIKUNGWE: Thank you very much, honorable minister, for giving way. I just want to give you information about a gentleman called Sulaiman Serunjogi, the Deputy Resident District Commissioner, Wakiso. He was addressing a meeting in Mutungo Central Zone, just as you go to Ranch on the Lake, and he told the people, We shall kill you, we shall arrest you, we shall cane you, we shall put you in jail if you do not support this Government. Those are his exact words.
 
When you look at Article 203, honorable minister, this is where the problem comes from. While Article 203 insists that these must be senior civil servants, the contrary is correct. I do not know the criteria they use to pick these people, but a lot more problems are on the way. This is the information I wanted to give you.
 
MR MBABAZI: Thank you, hon. Kikungwe.
 
MR AMURIAT: I wish to thank my senior colleague for giving way. What has been articulated by my colleagues is actually happening in other parts of the country as well. About a month ago while I was consulting my people of Kumi, my colleagues, hon. Elijah Okupa, hon. Jack Sabiiti, Members of this House, and hon. Maj. Gen. Mugisha Muntu, who is a Member of the East African Legislative Assembly, came to my constituency. They ran into problems. They were actually enroute to Kampala from Kasilo where they had gone for a fundraising event at the invitation of the area Member of Parliament.
 
One of their vehicles developed engine problems and I believe the wisest thing they thought they could do under such circumstances was to call somebody they know. They called my colleague, hon. Epetait, who at the time was with me in Kumi. We went to offer support and that to me I believe was a natural instinct. You would not see a colleague suffering in your area of jurisdiction and run away from them because they are wearing goatskin or they are wearing sheepskin. That by itself, offering support, seemed to be a crime in the eyes of the Resident District Commissioner. He warned me in public not to encourage FDC supporters to go to Kumi; and because of wrong intelligence he even threatened to arrest Mr Pulkol, who was not in the company of these friends of ours. Mr Speaker, given the fact that we are moving to a new political dispensation, I believe these RDCs should be restrained and told what their role is.
 
The other information I want to give is that this kind of repressive approach towards politics has caught up with the population. Two days ago a supporter of mine was assaulted by an NRM/O supporter. This disease is catching up with the population and should be cause for worry to us as Members of Parliament. Actually this young man was assaulted and he has a broken arm as we speak now. I think this is not how we shall conduct politics as we go into multi-party politics. Thank you.
 
MR MBABAZI: Well, I thank hon. Kikungwe, for the information, and hon. Amuriat for the long information. I thought it was the standing practice of this House that for us to drag names of individuals into discussion on this Floor of the House, who are not able to defend themselves here, should be discouraged. What I would like to encourage colleagues like hon. Kikungwe to do, once you come across information like that you can either raise a question or notice. Give us that information so that the relevant minister can actually get a response from the other side and then he or she comes and gives you an informed answer. What do you expect me to say now, really? This is the first time I am hearing hon. Kikungwe say a thing like that.
 
Hon. Amuriat, you know this Movement restored law and order. We have restored the rule of law in this country and no one is above the law. Everyone is subject to the law: RDC, Member of Parliament, Ministers, the President, everybody is subject to the law. Therefore, anyone who acts in breach of the law must face the consequences. And we know the procedures. We know the institutional mechanisms in place to enforce that. So what I would like to encourage hon. Amuriat to do - from the long information he was giving me there is a suggestion that some people were acting in breach of the law  please, do the needful.
 
The Resident District Commissioners, as you all know, are heads of security of the districts. Every RDC is head of security of the district. It is, therefore, the duty of the RDC to preside over all security agencies and be responsible for the actions of the agencies in his or her district. Therefore, some of the things, which they do are in execution of their statutory duty. I could only urge you, members to support them so that the rule of law, which is the path this country has chosen, is not only spoken about but is seen to be practiced. I thank you.
 
MS KIRASO: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of procedure. I am referring to our Rules of Procedure, rule 62, which says, All Members shall dress in a decent and dignified manner, that is to say, a pair of trousers with a jacket, shirt and tie, a kanzu and jacket or safari suit for male members. In relation to that I want your guidance on the way hon. Kiwagama and hon. Lodou are dressed today. Thank you.
 
THE SPEAKER: I cannot see hon. Kiwagama; is that a national dress of some country? Yours is not, hon. Lodou, you are out. Hon. Kiwagama, you come here but for you definitely -(Interjections)- well, I think it is unique, but it is okay. (Laughter).
 
REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL ECONOMY
 
3.51
THE CHAIRPERSON, STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE NATIONAL ECONOMY (Mr Nandala Mafabi): Mr Speaker and honorable members, on 19th February 2005 (Interruption)
 
MR KIKUNGWE: Mr Speaker, I wonder whether the reports of the committee have been circulated.
 
THE SPEAKER: Well, there was some indication to me an hour or so before the proceedings started that the committee was not ready. So, I want to call the chairman to put it on record. But that is the information I received that they wanted more time to polish up their report. That was my understanding, but now I do not know what he is trying to say.
 
MR MAFABI: Mr Speaker, it is true that the report was completed slightly late and members have not had the copies because of the delay. The issue was that they were three and a half years involved and there were gaps, which had to be tied up. I seek the indulgence of the House that members get their copies tomorrow, they read through first - because it is a big document - so that they can debate it from an informed point of view. Thank you.
 
THE SPEAKER: Okay. So, you are not ready to present because of those -(Interruption)
 
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THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FINANCE, PLANNING (Mr Isaac Musumba): Mr Speaker, I have heard the chairpersons explanation, which I have a lot of sympathy for, but I also have a problem. The problem is that neither his explanation nor any matter before proceedings in the committee or in fact this House, is helping to solve the problem that was presented before this House on the 10th of February this year, which is that we have some urgent matters, which we want clearance of this House of, which relate to funding some of the key projects in this country.
 
We did submit to the committee way back in the month of September a request for approval for a loan to enable us to do the Soroti-Dokolo-Lira road; to enable us to do the Busega-Mityana road; to enable us to do the Atyak-Moyo road and to enable us to do the Gayaza-Zirobwe-Wobulenzi road. Sir, preparations are already advanced. On the 23rd of February 2005, that is next week, we are going to have a World Bank delegation here and as a government we must make up our mind on that day whether we are going to access -(Interruption)
 
MR AWORI: Procedure, Mr Speaker.
 
THE SPEAKER: Why do you not allow him to develop what he wants to develop and we listen?
 
MR AWORI: But he is replying to something we have not even seen.
 
THE SPEAKER: What you have not done what? Please, finish then we shall be able to -(Interruption)
 
MR MUSUMBA: Thank you, Sir. This matter was presented to this House by the honorable chairperson last Thursday, 10th February 2005. So, if you read our rules, rule 115 stipulates that a matter should not delay with the House for more than two months. In fact specifically it says -(Interruption)
 
MR BANYENZAKI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Is the honorable minister standing in for the Minister of Finance in order to misguide this House that the report, which the Chairman of the Committee of National Economy is to present here, is a report on the loans? Actually the Speaker ruled that the loans procedure - the way it was being handled by the committee - will be handled separately from the report, which the Chairman of the National Economy Committee is going to give because the report is on the national economy, not on loans.
 
And the minister is aware that he has not even submitted the documents we asked him for to approve those loans. Is he in order to mislead this House that the report is on loans when actually the report is on national economy?
 
THE SPEAKER: You see, I cannot rule on such a point of order because this is a factual situation and I am not seized with the facts. That I cannot do. But my understanding was that he is saying not presenting the report is affecting some business, which is before the committee, which business should expeditiously be handled because they have a matter to deal with. He has mentioned a number of beneficiaries of these loans, Gayaza and so forth. So I think he was saying, How about id we deal with those loans expeditiously? If there are any internal problems, you clear the loan then you handle the internal problems related to the administration of these loans.
 
MR MUSUMBA: May I finish my submission? This House in its wisdom did enact rules and under those rules if a matter, in this case it may be a Bill or by analogy any subsidiary or incidental matter related to or a ejusdem generis; if it takes more than two months in a committee then this House is entitled to proceed on such a matter. Therefore, I want to propose that the honorable chairperson of the committee brings a report that will help us to fund the national budget in relation to the four or five loans that have been submitted before him, in whatever form or circumstances the findings of the committee are. That is because if he does not I may be compelled to come to this House and ask this House, in keeping with the rules, to consider those loans directly. I thank you, Sir.
 
DR NKUUHE: The minister is referring us to rule 115 but in fact that rule is dealing with Bills. If you delay a Bill, it says; Subject to the Constitution, no Bill introduced in the House shall be delayed for more than two months in any Committee. I do not know whether this is a Bill or not.
 
THE SPEAKER: Let us deal with the substance of the matter. I think from what the minister is saying this matter of loans has been outstanding with the committee for a very long time and it is causing a problem not only to the House but to the country as such. He is appealing that this matter be expeditiously handled.
 
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THE MINISTER OF WORKS, HOUSING AND COMMUNICATIONS (Mr John Nasasira): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am a bit concerned. If I understood what hon. Banyenzaki said, as a member of the committee he says the report that is coming tomorrow is the report on the economy of the country and not the report on loans that are with the committee. That worries me even further if I add it to what my colleague said about the loans.
 
You know the loans are many. They are affecting many areas and he mentioned the loans that are under my ministry and hon. Banyenzaki said they asked for information and he did not produce it. That is not true. This loan has been with the committee since September. Actually a lot of information was asked from our ministry and I had come with it. We produced information in December for each member - 16 copies. We laboured and produced that and I attached a letter urging the committee that these projects are critical for our development; that was around 6th December. As the House went on recess, I had a word with the chairperson and he assured me that even he had had to discuss with the World Bank and that as soon as we come back he would bring these loans here for approval by Parliament.
 
Three months down the road the mission is here, the tenders are waiting, and we cannot proceed. I need some help here from you, Mr Speaker and the honorable members. This credit was negotiated in April last year; it has a limit. If we do not do it very soon, the mission is here on Monday with the World Bank, we will look as if we do not want this money. It is US $16.7 million for all these road projects. I just do not understand. So, if tomorrow the report that is coming is a report on the economy, may I know when we are getting the report on loans? Thank you, Mr Speaker.
 
MRS SSENTONGO: I want to move a motion to this effect. Considering the urgency of the matter and considering the time lag that these loans have taken in the committee without any hidden agenda by the committee, it seems we are delaying the Governments work. In view of this I would like to move a motion that these loans be presented so that we can pass them as soon as possible, if possible now.
 
THE SPEAKER: Honorable chairman, this is a serious issue. Before I left for a conference in Nairobi the other week, I discussed with the chairperson the complaints I was receiving from various quarters about pending loans with the committee. I asked the chairperson to make a statement on this and explain what it is happening because if information sought from government officials is not forthcoming, the committee should come and report to us that, You gave us this assignment but we are not getting the co-operation from this and this, so that we know what to do. But imagine now people hearing that their roads would have been fixed but we are holding on to the loans? It is not good. Chairman, what do you say?
 
MR ERESU: Mr Speaker, I would like to give the following information to the House. It was ruled last Tuesday that the chairman of the committee presents to this House the list of those loans so that the House knows how many pending loans are in place. The ruling was that he should have presented them today. Unfortunately such ruling has not been complied with by the chairman of the committee.
 
MR MAFABI: Mr Speaker, I have heard all the sentiments but last week when we were here, I do not know where by brother Eresu was. The list of the loans in the committee was presented and the dates were read in the House and the reasons why they had delayed. Maybe I should make a quick summary of the report of the other time.
 
You will recall that last year when these loans were laid on the Table in the House we went on recess twice. One was in October for consultation on the White Paper, and the second time was when we went for Christmas recess. Despite the time of going for those two recesses, I had written to all ministries of those loan requests fall and demanded for information. I agree I met the Minister of Works and told him that he had not sent the information, and the information he is talking about came in January 2005. Mr Speaker -(Interruption)
 
MR NASASIRA: The information was requested for and sent to the committee on the 16th of December 2004. I am ready to lay on the Table all these documents, including his request, for all members to see.
 
THE SPEAKER: Honorable members, why do we not do this? Why do we not ask this committee to go and sit and consider this issue and report to us tomorrow? It will not be an accusation against the committee; it is an accusation against the entire Parliament that we are delaying development of these roads. Why do you, chairman, not convene your committee and reconsider this matter?
 
MR MAFABI: Mr Speaker, it is good the minister is saying they were sent to the committee on the 16th of December. That is when I think we went for recess. I want to assure you as the chairman (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: Recess started on 23rd December 2004.
 
MR MAFABI: Mr Speaker, it is true those documents came and when we received them it was in January. The minister could have written his letter on 16th but the date of delivery is different. I want the indulgence of the House on this matter. The requests, which we made to the ministries are clear and the minister has submitted some of the documents but not all the information, which is required has been submitted.
 
It is unfortunate that we are coming in the House to try and win the case, but that is not the right way. I want to assure you that the committee has been considering these loan requests and it is going to come out with a position, but not tomorrow as you are requesting. That would be just like a matter of stampeding the committee. It will not be fair for us to be in the committee and write a report saying we have rejected the loan, which is good. It is better for all us to understand the request of the loan before we bring it to the House.
 
Mr Speaker, I would seek the indulgence of the House that the committee be given time to look at this loan request like the one, which he has mentioned (Interjections)- if I can give facts about this loan (Interruption)
 
MR BANYEZAKI: Mr Speaker, I am seeking guidance on this issue of loans. When our chairman last Wednesday presented the number of loans that are before our committee, he went ahead to give the information that has been given and the information that has not been given. The Minister of State for Finance, Mr Isaac Musumba, conceded that there have been behind the scene talks that the chairman is not considering these loans because he is on the opposition; and he promised that he is going to give all the relevant information as pertaining those loans that are before our committee. I raised that issue and the Speaker ruled that today we present the report on the economy and we deal with the loans, and we are dealing with these loans.
 
So, it is not right to accuse the chairman that he is sitting on these loans when the committee is actually considering them. Even the information of the minutes he is tabling right now, we do not have that information right now. We only have part of that information that he is giving us. Now that he is tabling it, give us an opportunity to look into those loans and we report to this House.
 
MR MAFABI: Mr Speaker, it was unfortunate that the Minister of State in Charge of Finance and Planning said that I am anti-government. I assured him, No, I am not on the development programmes. I want to ask him a question: when he stopped AES, was he anti-government? You see, Mr Speaker (Interruption)
 
MR MUSUMBA: I can invite you, Mr Speaker (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: Honorable member, the question is, how do we handle this business?
 
MR MUSUMBA: Mr Speaker, I had raised on a point of order (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: Okay.
 
MR MUSUMBA: I would very much have wanted to avoid this point of order but I have no choice. Sir, the Hansard is very clear. I did not say that the Chairman is anti-government, no. I said, information has been getting to us and we have firmly rejected that information to the effect that the chairperson is delaying to have these programmes moving forward because he is anti-government. We said, No, he is probably doing his duty. However, additional information has come that actually the chairman has been on record on some radio stations saying he will not approve any loan that is coming from government as long as he is in tenure of that office.
 
I want to propose that we resolve this matter in this manner. The first point is that we have  it is not just one loan of roads as I said - we have loans for water, we have pressure from the Islamic University, and others. I propose that you guide this House  there was a motion on the Floor; it was supported but we have not pronounced ourselves on it (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: Honorable members, what do we do?
 
MS KIRASO: Mr Speaker, if I remember the way this matter ended after the chairman of the committee had presented that report on Tuesday, he also informed this House that there were some reports, which were ready or which were almost ready. The ruling from the Speaker that day was that those reports would be presented today. But if the reports are not ready for presentation, I think we are not going to whip anybody or to reprimand anybody because they also have a point that there is some information, which was missing, which the chairman did present to this House.
 
I would like to propose the way forward that between today and tomorrow afternoon if there are reports, which are ready, the committee should bring them. And then by Tuesday next week when we resume or any other day we will give the committee time to scrutinize the information, which was required of government, which information the Chairman rightly said was missing from what they wanted. Hon. Musumba undertook - and he is on record - he undertook to provide that information to the committee. So, it is the committee getting information and coming up with a report. If the chairman is in position to present one of the loans reports tomorrow, I think we could move forward from there.
 
MR NANDALA MAFABI: Mr Speaker, that day when we left (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: No, can you reply to the suggestion? Do you accept this?
 
MR NANDALA MAFABI: Mr Speaker, yes, we can present the loan requests tomorrow but I want to tell the Executive (Interruption)
 
MRS ANGUPALE: Thank you very much, honorable colleague, for giving way. I have been consulting with my colleagues and given the fact that the chairperson of the committee is saying that there will be presenting the issue on the Islamic University loan; and members in the committee have been expressing their view that the documents, which were necessary to make them approve the loan were not available. The point was that they are bound to reject the approval of the loan.
 
I would like to request that the documents, which are with hon. Kaddunabbi should be laid on the Table so that the committee can go through them and have reasons for rejecting the loan. I request your high office to allow hon. Kaddunabbi to lay the documents on the Table. Thank you.
 
THE SPEAKER: Let us do this: let us receive the reports, which are ready tomorrow afternoon and let the committee consider this demand by next week and bring us the report on all other loans.
 
MR MAFABI: Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for your wise ruling. I again request the House that in whatever form the report will come, depending on the issue of the information received, I would want to you to be on the side of the committee and not say the committee never did its work. It has done its work in the best way. If it has recommended that you reject the loan with the recommendations and reasoning, please, support the committee.
 
Finally, Mr Speaker -(Interjection)- since we need the reports, that will be done.
 
On the issue of the report we presented last week, it was categorically stated that there are many loans, which we have passed and have not been utilized, and one of them- I can see the Minister of Finance talking water- the water for small tanks was approved and at the same time this loan has never been utilized since 2002.
 
We are talking about the roads; we have a loan we approved in September 2001 about Kafu-Masindi road. I think all of you know what has taken place on that road, by now the road would be done.
 
Mr Speaker -(Interruption)
 
MR. NASASIRA: I was on Kafu-Masindi road last Sunday, and any honourable Member of Parliament is free to visit this road even today or tomorrow; work is going on Kafu-Masindi road.
 
MR WADRI: Mr Speaker, I wish to confirm the information, which has been given by the Minister for Works. The equipment are there, the work is in progress; that is Kafu-Masindi road.
 
MR MAFABI: I want to thank you very much for the information. Yes, the equipment is there, the survey was done, but this road should have started in the year 2001 (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: I think, honourable member, what we are interested in more now is the business pending before you, not the business which you completed. You talk about the business pending before you and how you intend to really handle it.
 
MR MAFABI: Mr Speaker, our Committee will do its level best to see that the work pending is done in the right way as far as the Committee is concerned.
Given that information, Mr Speaker, I would seek that I beg to move.
 
MR MALINGA: Mr Speaker, under Rule 124 of our Rules of Procedure, it is one of the responsibilities of a Committee to report to Parliament whatever findings they will get in their functions.
 
As a Chairman of the Business Committee, I think it is within your powers to give a time frame to a committee to produce work to Parliament.
 
The information we have is that the Chairman of this committee is reluctant to approve some of these loans. So as to benefit from the programme, we ask the committee to report to the House within a specific period of time because (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: Honourable members, I have said tomorrow give us the reports, which you have completed; and by next week give us the other reports.
 
MRS SALAAMU MUSUMBA: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. The clarification I am seeking is whether there is administrative capacity in this Parliament to deliver what we are asking of the Committee on National Economy; because, Mr Speaker, there is hardly paper when you need it.
 
The Committee (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: Honourable member, that is another dimension. The Chairman (Interruption)
 
MRS MUSUMBA: But it is the same report, Sir.
 
THE SPEAKER: The Chairman did not say because of these other things, he was blaming other people for not giving information (Interruption)
 
MRS MUSUMBA: Mr Speaker, I am a member of that Committee and I am bringing this to the attention of the House so that we are able to be efficient and effective.
 
Mr Speaker, there is hardly administrative capacity to back the demand that you are placing on the Committee. The Chairman of the Committee and the members must write the reports themselves, they must edit the reports themselves, they must photocopy the reports themselves; most of the times with faulty machines that are not able to deliver the work.
 
Can I get an assurance, Sir, that with effect from midnight tonight, capacity will have been developed in this institution to deliver work that this House and the Plenary requires of us in the Committee? Thank you, Sir.
 
THE SPEAKER: Can we get assurance from the Committee that the work is there, only to be produced? I will grant that. If the work is ready and what you need is to produce it, I guarantee it- (Applause)
 
MR MAFABI: Mr Speaker, I want to put the record clear that the Committee on National Economy has 15 members, and it is not right to say that the Chairman is the one who is refusing the loans. He has 15 members and he calls meetings, and majority of the members - of course we are all going to leave the Movement System  are going in NRM/O.
 
Now, Mr Speaker, it is wrong for a member to get up and start alleging issues, which are not right. It is very bad (Interruption)
 
MR EKANYA: Mr Speaker, I am a member of the Committee- (Laughter)- I am giving this information. I want to tell this Parliament that we have worked tirelessly to approve so many loans in this House.
 
During the last Session, Mr Speaker, under the Deputy Chairperson of honourable Kabakumba, we sat down and we wanted to sit during recess to do all this work.
 
Honourable Speaker, you remember I attended the business meeting before Parliament went for recess, I represented the Committee, and we told you we had a loan to pass and you allowed it to be passed.
 
We requested your office through our Clerk that you allow us to sit during recess to do work. The Clerk gave us information that you cannot allow us to sit; and we did say that we do not need any payment from Parliament, but the information got from the Clerk was that even if we do not want payment you cannot allow us to sit because if an accident happens here, Parliament must be responsible- (Laughter)
 
So, to blame the Committee that we do not want to work is wrong because we were ready to sit without pay during recess, your office objected us to sit and finish this loan.
 
MRS RAINER KAFIRE: We were told by the Minister that they submitted some of these loans in as far back as September, and we started our recess on 23rd December; what a difference! Can I get clarification on that?
 
THE SPEAKER: Honourable member, I think let us conclude this. Honourable Chairperson, present the reports, which are ready, tomorrow. If the work is there and then you do not have paper, bring it to me, I will produce it. 
 
MR MAFABI: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. There was something, which was read by the Minister of Finance that I said on radio that we shall not pass any loans. I would be very happy if the Minister can bring that recording (Interruption)
 
THE SPEAKER: Honourable Chairperson, I think we have finished this business. We expect you tomorrow to bring the reports.
 
BILLS
COMMITTEE STAGE
 
THE UGANDA PEOPLES DEFENCE FORCES BILL, 2003
 

THE CHAIRMAN: Honourable members, maybe I will have to explain. The leadership of this particular Committee on Defence and Internal Affairs had some changes in that the Minister now for Higher Education was the Chairperson. He was steering this bill when we were handling it, but now he is a Minister and the Vice Chairperson is not here. But I understand the Committee has agreed for the time being, he is steering the business of that Committee; that is why he is here.
 
2.24
THE ACTING CHAIRPERSON, SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE AND INTERNAL AFFAIRS (Mr Kabareebe Muzoora): I thank you very much, Mr Chairman, honourable members.
 
The Uganda Peoples Defence Forces Bill has been progressing very well in this House, but Clause 80 was stood over. At that moment, what caused the halt was due to sub-clause (3), which brought out a list of all the beneficiaries on the pensions and gratuity that would be paid in respect of the death of a veteran.
 
The list that came out included the National Resistance Movement, the Uganda National Rescue Front, the Uganda Freedom Movement, Former Uganda National Army (FUNA), Save Uganda Movement, Federal Democratic Movement (FEDEMO), Front for National Salvation (FRONASA), Uganda National Liberation Front/Anti-Dictatorship - that was UNLF/Anti-dictatorship, the Rwenzori Front.
 
Mr Chairman and honourable members, a question came from the honourable members in the House as to why one group was left out, and this was a group called Kikosi Malum.
 
Kikosi Malum was involved in liberating this country in 1979 and it is the one, which followed the Kampala axis, Eastern axis up to Northern Uganda. It was led by (Interruption)
 
THE CHAIRMAN: But honourable Chairman, my recollection is that when we stopped dealing with this bill, we had three clauses that were remaining and we decided that we set up a small sub-committee chaired by the Minister of Defence to harmonise, come up with a position, so that we expeditiously deal with this matter.
 
Therefore, today, I expected the Chairman of the sub-committee to give us a report on what they have discussed and solutions found so that this matter, which has been pending for quite long, is resolved. Is the report ready, honourable Minister?
 
MR AMAMA MBABAZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Yes, it is true that when Parliament last considered this matter, a committee was established to look at Clause 80. There were other clauses, but it was mainly Clause 80.
 
There are clauses like definition, which was awaiting the completion of the discussion of the rest of the bill, and we had almost completed the section, which deals with administration of justice in the military and there was only one issue outstanding there.
 
Now, we attempted to hold a meeting of the Committee, but it did not really work out. So subsequently, when I was not available, under the chairmanship of the then Chair of the Committee, they held a meeting. So, I think the report by him is the cause of that because I did not attend the meeting; and after they had sat, we did not convene another one.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: So now the position looks to be that, the Committee did not work on the assignment, but the main Committee on Defence handled the business and that is the report, which the honourable member is giving; I think that will be the record.
 
MR KABAREEBE: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. The new position of the Committee having talked to the Minister, the Minister accepts that this group be enlisted among others; and with that one, there would not be any objection if he does not object. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.
 
MR AMAMA MBABAZI: Mr Chairman, I accept the amendment to include Kikosi Malum, which fought. Either we remove FRONASA, because it is there, so that we only deal with groups after 1980; or if we are to include FRONASA, it is only fair that we include Kikosi Malum, so I accept that.
 
MR BYABAGAMBI: Mr Chairman, I was going to propose that since the Chairman has mentioned FRONASA, and FRONASA was before 1980, then UNLA, which was also before 1980, should also be included.
 
But since the Minister says that FRONASA should be removed because it happened before 1980 - I think that is a proposal - then if it is not that then, Mr Chairman, I propose that UNLA, that is the one, which liberated us from Idi Amin, should be included in the list.
 
MR MBABAZI: Mr Chairman, I thank the honourable member for his contribution, but for the information of the House, the liberation movements were mainly three: FRONASA, which fought on the western axis - Kikagati, Mbarara, Fort Portal, Masindi up to the West Nile; Kikosi Malum, which came through Mutukula, Masaka, Kampala, the East all the way to West Nile and Save Uganda Movement (SUM).
 
Now, when we captured Kampala on 11 April 1979, we decided to form one National Army and UNLA was constituted by bringing all these forces together. So, once you mention FRONASA, you mention Kikosi Malum, you mention SUM, then you have UNLA there. Thank you.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: So, you think UNLA would be an umbrella to cater for the others so that we shorten the list and put the umbrella?
 
MR MBABAZI: No. You see, UNLA was formed after we had captured power here, and, therefore, there were many people who participated in the liberation struggle that did not join UNLA whom we would want to cover; if we did that we would miss them out. Thank you.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Now, why dont we dispose of these amendments that are coming in? We have heard the report of the Chairperson, accepted by the Minister. Hon. Byabagambi has brought in UNLA so that we also include it, can we dispose of these amendments?
 
MR BYABAGAMBI: I want to seek a small clarification, Mr Chairman, on UNLA. I entirely agree with the Minister that maybe this is an umbrella, but what about those people who joined the umbrella, who did not come in the mainstreams of liberation movements, where are they captured?
 
THE CHAIRMAN: That is where they will be captured because UNLA became the National Army, and therefore those who joined afterwards became part of UNLA.
 
MR BYABAGAMBI: So, I assume that if UNLA is included, then there I am satisfied. But if he is saying he is only going to include only liberation movements, which formed UNLA, there I am at a loss, Mr Chairman, because those who joined (Interruption)
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Did the Minister object to your amendment?
 
MR BYABAGAMBI: He was objecting, so I want to know where those will go, those who joined would not come in the mainstream; where are they captured, how will they be catered for?
 
MR OKUMU REAGAN: Mr Chairman, I would not have any problem with the Ministers position, but the clarification I want to get from the Minister is that, I thought UNLA was formed in Moshi with very many fighting forces, irrespective of their numbers whether this one contributed, and that the leadership was also agreed where the late President Yusuf Lule became the President, Paul Mwanga became the Military Commissioner; and that by the time Kampala was captured they had a President to present to Ugandans.
 
So, UNLA was not actually formed when Kampala was captured, I thought it was formed in Moshi with many of those umbrella groups. I thought it would be good to include all those other groups, who contributed in the Moshi arrangement to liberate this country, so that at least all of them are recognised. I just want to seek his clarification so that I can have a stand on this.
 
MR AMURIAT: Mr Chairman, the bill seeks to include Uganda National Liberation Front/Anti-dictatorship under the category of liberation movements and it is specific, the Minister talks about Rwenzori Front under UNLF.
 
I just wanted to seek clarification whether within UNLF there were no other fronts, because it specifies here Rwenzori Front. Were there no other Fronts in the UNLA, probably the Teso Front, or the Eastern Front, or whatever it might have been called so that these fronts could also be included here? Why does the bill seek to specify the Rwenzori Front and keep silent about the other possible Fronts that might have fought during the liberation struggle?
 
MR RUHINDI: Mr Chairman, I have further clarification.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: He wants to dispose it off; you can bring in yours.
 
MR RUHINDI: It is related, Mr Chairman.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
 
MR RUHINDI: Mr Chairman, the last time we debated this matter, I raised an issue of very great concern, and I remember I quoted the provisions of Article (3) of the Constitution.
 
In essence, it says that, It is prohibited for any person or group of persons to take or retain control of the Government of Uganda, expect in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution.
 
The meaning behind this provision is to ensure that the form of taking power through these liberation fronts is to a greatest extent discouraged. If we really institutionalise them in law, more or less we are saying, We are encouraging you always to take up arms, fight, and come here as liberators.
 
Mr Chairman, I am not saying that we should not recognize the efforts, the labour, everything that we went through to liberate this country, I am not saying that; but we can have another chapter, not in the law, another way of recognizing the attributes of our Colleagues other than putting it in the law.
 
Mr Chairman, really, let us give this matter serious thought, let us reflect on it; in other words, I am really against putting these liberation fronts, institutionalising them in the law as if really we are institutionalising an arrangement that we are encouraging.
 
MR MBABAZI: First of all, to answer hon. Fred Ruhindi, Mr Chairman, the good lawyer, he knows very well that in law you cannot be punished for acts, which you were engaged in at a time when there was no law prohibiting them.
 
When we create a law by Statute, the offence becomes an offence when the law comes into effect. You cannot say that because today talking above your voice or your head is criminal, then you trace back to when Mbabazi talked above his voice a hundred years ago and you say we punish you for that; you do not.
 
Please, honourable members do not forget that even the freedom you are enjoying today, which you are exercising in this Parliament, came through hard armed struggle. The debate we have, the restoration of this Parliament, the democratisation process, which we are going through, is attributed to the armed struggle. So, for you to turn round and say, Yes, I am ready to continue enjoying these benefits but not to recognise the facts that brought about this situation, I think is not right.
 
This is what I said in support of this Clause 80. I said- and this answers a point raised by someone else earlier on. I said that as a Government policy, we have decided that all those people who served under any Government in Uganda from the time of independence, whether you were in UA, whether you were in UNLA, whether in any military force that was serving the State, which previously we had labelled Obotes Army or Amins Army, we said we would discharge them honourably and they are entitled to pension.
 
They are covered under another provision, which we passed already in this bill, those who were in UNLA and UA. You remember we went through the exercise of recording them and so forth, they are entitled to pension after discharge by the State.
 
The only people, who are supposed to be covered under Article 80, are those who were fighting for our freedom but are not covered by that decision now.
 
So what we end up with, Mr Chairman, is that those in fact who were responsible for the dictatorship, those who had denied our people their rights, are recognized for their service, they are being paid for their service; and those who fought for the freedom are not.
 
Clause 80 is to bring about a balance, to recognize the services of those who served the country irrespective of the problems of the Government of the day, but also recognise those who fought for freedom.
 
Now, this is only up to the time - even those who were for instance in NRA, but who registered in NRA now, they are not covered by this; they are covered by a different section, which we have already passed. So, these people, therefore, including UNLF and UNLA, are covered under another provision dealing with pensions.
 
We talked about pensions and gratuities for services to the country. I think it was either Clause 69 or something like that; we passed it already, we can go and look at it.
 
UNLA, therefore, is very well covered. This UNLF, which we have here is UNLF, which was started by the gang of four after (Mrs Akwero Odwong rose_) the people who were rather positively, it not in a negative sense, referred to as the gang of four.
 
Now, these were involved in the fight, and the reason why we mentioned Rwenzori is because they were operating from Rwenzori, that is why we are being specific.
 
So, Mr Chairman, I thought it was necessary to make that explanation so that people know whom we are talking about, the limitations we are talking about and to explain that everyone who served the country is actually covered under this bill. Thank you.
 
MRS ODWONG: Mr Chairman, while appreciating the information given by the Minister, I still have the view that the UNLA should be included in that category.
 
It is true Clause 69 talks about Officers and men who have retired honourably, but you remember that the bulk of the UNLA soldiers left service not of their own accord; actually they just left anyhow without being given any discharge certificates.
 
Secondly, on the same issue of categorising the fighters, I need to be guided, is there no possibility of even putting in that category, Kitgum front, because we know many youth were killed en route to Sudan because they were being recruited? They were recruited and that was a main route, and there were people actually who were helping the youth to leave and join the other liberation forces. So, I need your guidance, they should also be taken into account, Uwinyikibul and Kona-ogwech massacres that took place there.
 
MR ANANG-ODUR: Mr Chairman, in spite of the Ministers response to what hon. Ruhindi Fred had to say, I have a lot of problems with this provision.
 
Honourable Akwero Odwong has stated something, which can be repeated all over the districts of northern Uganda.
 
In 1972, Mr Chairman, there was recruitment of youth in the whole of Northern Uganda to join the war against Idi Amin at that time and many youth, I know many of them, died. How are we going to include them in this?
 
In the case of Lango we are talking about hundreds, if not thousands, of people who died. You remember what happened in Uwinyikibul in 1972 when these people crossed over, they were being trained on their way to Tanzania and they were killed there; the same case in the whole of Acholi land, the same case in some parts of Teso, how do you accommodate these people in this provision?
 
Mr Chairman, I find this provision very complicated and problematic, and if Government goes ahead with this, it is going to cause us unnecessary headache because the categories of people the Minister is talking about here, in my view, first of all, do not exist.
 
Secondly, if you study the ones, which are listed here, and in my understanding of what was happening during this period, they either will fall in the Uganda Army, UNLA, NRA and UPDF; most of these categories would be distributed in those areas.
 
Sir, my other concern is, we have just listed phones - I do not know what  here. I would be very uncomfortable, Mr Chairman, to pass this provision without knowing the implications financially for this country.
 
Supposing I was the leader of the anti-dictatorship front in Rwenzori area and I come with a list of 20,000 people, who can verify this, what are the means?
 
I would have been happier if we were now going to say that the Minister should give us the list of the people concerned to be attached to this to avoid the usual behaviour of Ugandans to exaggerate, inflate, in order to make money; because these are taxes of Ugandans we are going to use and we cannot just give a blank cheque, Mr Chairman.
 
In fact, in my view, it would be totally unnecessary to pass this provision because, I really do not see which categories of people surely we are going to serve by this, knowing that so many people have been left out if we go by this categorization. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
 
MR MBABAZI: Well, I do not think honourable Anang-Odur wanted a clarification; he simply wanted to say he is opposed, which he is welcome to do.
 
Honourable Jane Akwero Odwong, I will answer her like this; you see, if there are UNLA - and this is for the benefit of everyone - if there were those members of UNLA who have not registered, we have had an exercise of registering all of them so that we can discharge them honourably. So in that case they fall under Section 69, so those are covered.
 
I hope the media will give it maximum publicity so that all those who served in UNLA, those who enlisted in UNLA and who of course were disbanded because of the war, and who had not been reached to receive the information that we are in the process of registering them for the purpose of honourably discharging them so that they are paid their pension, please inform them that we still can do that now.
 
Then the question of those people who opposed the dictatorships. Well, we know, Mr Chairman, that the majority of Ugandans oppose these dictatorships either as individuals or  many people opposed these dictatorships.
 
But there is no way we can cover those as hon. Anang-odur was saying because it is too wide and unlimited. So what we are restricting ourselves to, are organisations which were organised, whose membership is verifiable.
 
I should tell you, Mr Chairman, that of course we have been going through this exercise. We have, for instance, the lists of many people and we have been going through verification exercises particularly because of claims; and that particular one, Article 80, is payment in respect of veterans, and what it is, is clearly defined there and that definition is also supposed to limit the number not to be too many.
 
Now, what we had agreed in the Committee, Mr Chairman, because this question arose, was that the Minister should by Statutory Instrument, when this has been authorized - because it could not be done, there was no law permitting it to be done - once the law permits it, then the exercise should take place and the payments will be in accordance with the Statutory Instrument by the line Minister, which we said as usual in case of serious matters, should be laid before this Parliament so that everybody knows who is being proposed to be paid. Thank you.
 
MR EKANYA: Mr Chairman, I would like the honourable Minister or the Chairperson of the Budget Committee to clarify, aware that whatever we are doing has financial implications.
 
The organization, the list that we add, will have impact on the budget and it automatically makes reference to the certificate that accompanies that bill to this House. So, I would like you to clarify whether the certificate that you submitted to this House with that bill from the Ministry of Finance took care of those organizations and the cost implication.
 
If you do not have sufficient information, can the Chairperson of the Budget Committee put it on record that the certificate complied with additions we are making, because as we speak now, Mr Chairman, we have a domestic debt of Ugshs 400 billion in pension arrears.
 
MR BYABAGAMBI: Mr Chairman, I do not know whether we are talking on the same wavelength with the Minister, and here I think I will seek also guidance.
 
I think to include those people in the law is to recognise them as liberation movements or armies. I know they are covered under Article 169, but UNLA came in as a Liberation Army and liberated us from Idi Amin; and not to include them there means that you are not recognising them as a liberation movement.
 
So, I was bringing it as recognition of UNLA as a Liberation Army, not necessarily whether they are going to get fringe benefits or not.
 
So, Mr Speaker, I need some clarification there, I do not know whether we are talking at the same wavelength.
 
MR MBABAZI: Mr Chairman, I would like to inform the honourable member that I was a member of FRONASA and I enlisted as a member of UNLA. I was the Director of Legal Services in UNLA and I was a member of the Defence Council.
 
Therefore, I want to inform you from a position of knowledge that - I am sorry I did not answer someone who talked about- I think it was hon Okumu Reagan. I forgot to answer him because that is the same point.
 
It is true that UNLF was formed in Moshi before the fall of Kampala. But even as UNLF was formed as a political wing, the fighting forces continued to fight separately. We were fighting on the western axis as FRONASA and Kikosi Malum was fighting on this central axis as Kikosi Malum.
 
On 11th April when the Government was formed, our leader, Yoweri Kaguta Museveni, was named a Minister of State (Defence) and he had to come to headquarters to take or discharge the responsibilities of Minister.
 
So, I was actually put in charge of our force on the western front and I did not come back to Kampala until after Masindi; and I came back to Kampala to engage in the preparations for forming UNLA. So, UNLA was formed after the liberation of Kampala when we were already in Government; it came after UNLF had been formed in Moshi, that is a fact.
 
Therefore, to say that UNLA was the liberation force and we need to recognize it as such alongside FRONASA and Kikosi Malum, is not to take into account the facts of history.
 
UNLA was a combination of all these groups after Kampala had fallen; and I sat in Mubende, in Kabamba, with the Late Tito Okello, with David Oyite Ojok, representing my group to form UNLA. So, I know how we formed UNLA and when we formed it; please take it from me.
 
MR AWONGO: Mr Chairman, while we appreciate the idea of recognising liberators, in my view I think we should do things one by one.
 
Mr Chairman, in 1994 the Minister of Defence went to West Nile and started to register all former soldiers; and after the registration of these soldiers, the whole of West Nile and Northern Uganda was informed that these people would receive their certificates of discharge and their package within three years, and the programme was supposed to start in West Nile. But since that time very little has been done and many of these people are complaining in these areas; and now we are adding the list and we shall continue to add this list until it becomes too much for this country to care for these things.
 
I want to pray that the Ministry and the Government will be considerate enough to ensure that those with whom they had started are dealt with before others, because this is going to create a lot of problems to this country, which problems may not be good for us. I thank you very much, Mr Chairman.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: I think we put a question. There is amendment to include Kikosi Malum on this list.
 
(Question put and agreed to.)
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Now, there is also a proposal that we add UNLA -(Interruption)
 
MR ANANG-ODUR: First of all, I am not a lawyer and I really beg to be pardoned. If I remember, the honourable Minister was saying there is a provision where those who served in the Uganda Army, UNLA and so on, will be covered under this law. I have just been trying to look through, but I am not fast enough and I do not want to be left behind so, I will ask him to help me, which clauses take care of this category? I just found Clause 70, which talks about UPDF pension, I think and when I went through, I went to Clause 80 and then the very category, which we have now just passed, but I do not see where Uganda Army and UNLA are covered, Sir.
 
MR RUHINDI: Mr Chairman, I have a problem because Clause 80 is in relation to pensions and gratuity. Now, according to the argument of the honourable Minister, UNLA actually falls in the mainstream of a national established Army not necessarily a liberation Army. Now, following on that particular argument, I would want him to look at the interpretation clause of what defence forces means, because you need to look at Clause 69, you need to look at Clause 80, you need to look at Clause 2, which defines defence forces. Defence forces means, the Uganda Peoples Defence Forces and this excludes UNLA for purposes of Clause 80. Now, where does that leave us?
 
MR MBABAZI: Well, as I said in my opening remarks, Clause 2 as you will recollect, was one this House decided it would handle last in order to take into account the decisions the House would have taken, because we would have been putting the horse before the cart if we define things we had not decided on. So, I think that is relevant point when we come to it. Thank you.
 
MR ANANG-ODUR: Mr Minister, are you telling us that you will agree to include UNLA and Uganda Army when we come to that? We have to be clear because we have to pass this, Sir.
 
MR MBABAZI: I will repeat for another time that we have a policy as a government now, to recognize the services of those who served in all the armies of independence, since 1962. Of course we also recognize that we have had instability and turmoil and we have had war and armies being disbanded through battle. So, we took a decision to recognize the services of all those who served in Uganda defence forces from the time of independence up-to-date, and we have even done some ground work to register people, as hon. Awongo was saying. So, the definition, therefore, must be such that, for purposes of pension all those people will be covered. Thank you.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: So, I put the question that Clause 80 as amended stand part of the Bill.
 
(Question put and agreed to.)
 
MR KABAREEBE: Mr Chairman, the Committee of the Whole House also stood over the interpretation, which is Clause 2, all of it, for the purposes of finishing the whole business and then later on come with all the definitions that are required.
 
Mr Chairman, also the Committee of the Whole House stood over Clause 193, and this one was raised because we were talking about the court martial which was, according to what was presented, obliging the chairman of the court martial to be a person qualified to be a judge of the High Court and the committee looked at it and it was not acceptable. So, the minister was requested to go and make the required amendments, which also caused some sequential amendments. So, I hope the minister now has the details.
 
MRS BYAMUKAMA: Mr Chairman, I had requested to recommit Clause 92(5), on maternity leave of 60 working days. I am not very sure whether (Interruption)
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Well, if it is recommital, let us finish these and then before we proceed for third reading that is when you can bring your motion for recommital.
 
MRS BYAMUKAMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
 
Clause 193
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Honourable Minister, anything to say about Clause 193? So, honourable members, I suggest that we give the minister time to go and consider queries raised on Clause 193.
 
MS KIRASO: Mr Chairman, honestly are we going to spend one year on the UPDF Bill, because we adjourned and gave time to the committee and the minister to go and look at these specific issues. I think we are going to adjourn for the third time for them to go and look at these same issues. I am sure the minister knows what he wants. Why does he not tell us and we look at it and get this thing out of the way?
 
MR MBABAZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. You remember this was in connection with administration of justice in the Army, and the substance of the Bill was accepted, except that it was honourable Twarebireho who proposed  because we had brought an amendment to remove reference to advocates manning the courts or staffing the courts of administration of justice in the military.
 
That was the only issue, Mr Chairman, and I had the position then, as now that to put in the law that restriction that heads of court in the military must be lawyers, meaning that in case lawyers refuse to join because we do not recruit by conscription, then we cannot administer justice, was not a good proposition.
 
We should simply establish the courts, as is currently the case, except in the case  I remember presenting this argument and this was for the purpose of honourable Dora Byamukama. I said then that in most of the levels of trial courts, it is a question of establishing facts whether people did it or did not do it, and we did not really need professional lawyers to do that.
 
Secondly, I said in law it is a requirement that anyone who is tried is free to engage a lawyer. Secondly, the staffing of the court must have a lawyer, there must be a judge advocate. So, in terms of guiding the court on legal questions, we thought these were adequate. However, when it comes to appeal and, therefore, it means that the question for determination is a legal one, then we said there must be a lawyer. And that is why we said for the Court Martial Appeals Court the presiding person must be qualified to be a judge of the High Court of Uganda.
 
Now, hon. Twarebireho was trying to apply that to lower courts, and that is what I was objecting to and for a very good reason. So with the amendment, which I submitted, Mr Chairman, which did not have reference to lawyers manning or staffing the lower courts, I think the only issue was whether these should be advocates qualified to be judges of the High Court or not. And my argument was that, you make it difficult to administer justice in the military, if you put that stringent requirement, in case we do not get the lawyers. Thank you.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: What is the copy of that amendment you are talking about?
 
MR MBABAZI: It was no longer Clause 193 because we had changed actually, I remember saying all this; it is Clause 195.
 
MS KIRASO: But, Mr Chairman, if I may remind the honourable Minister, I think after hon. Twarebireho had raised that, the minister had accepted the first part of having the chairperson of the court martial being a qualified advocate qualified where there cannot be an advocate. I think he had accepted to go and formulate an amendment on those lines; that in absence of somebody qualified as an advocate of the High Court, then somebody would be appointed with approval of the Army Council or something like that. That is why we stood over this because even the House was divided in light of modernization of the Army having a qualified somebody equivalent to a qualified judge or a qualified judge. So, we stood over it to give an opportunity to the minister to come up with an amendment to reflect that, In absence of somebody qualified as a judge& So, I expected an amendment.
 
MRS BYAMUKAMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. What hon. Kiraso has said is correct, and this particular proposal was advanced by the minister himself under Clause 193. So, when he decided to move away from this we agreed on the position, which hon. Kiraso has said. And when you look at it, Mr Chairman, Clause 193 says that, There shall be a General Court Martial for the defence forces, which shall have unlimited, original and subject to those appellate jurisdiction over all offences and persons under this Act and he goes on to talk about the qualifications.
 
So, really what this small committee should have done is to come up with a harmonized view on who, if it is not an advocate, should preside over this General Court Martial because the arguments are already on record.
 
So, I would like to support what hon. Kiraso said, and say that this is quite serious taking into account what kind of justice would be given. Because much as it may not be on issues of law, I think to some extent it will be repeating the work of a lower court if that lower court does not have capacity to address issues of both facts and law.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Now, in view of what has been stated by you and hon. Kiraso, what do we do?
 
LT GEN. TUMWINE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I had been burning with some important information based on research about the General Court Martials of the world, which I had wanted to pass on to this House to be able to reach on a proper decision, which will match us not only within the region but internationally. Now, I have covered three continents in the research, that is, in the United States, in Europe, in Africa and in Asia. Those are four, but I concentrated especially in other African countries that we are going to ally with in our relationship in defence roles in future and in East Africa for that matter, and in Europe and then in America.
 
Two principles mainly guide a General Court Martial. One is the level of seniority. You do not get somebody who is junior to preside over cases where you are going to try somebody senior. That is principle number one. Now, in that case if you put a provision which says, If you cannot find an advocate then you are making it conditional that there must always be an advocate. But the main consideration is that, as long as somebody is qualified to be senior at a level prescribed according to law, which is contained in the Bill, then that person has enough judicial understanding of the law generally, with the advice of the judge advocate to make sure that all the legal provisions of the law are followed to reach a decision.
 
The second principle is that, most of the General Court Martials all over the world use what is like assessors type of justice. There is no single judge who reaches his own decision alone, you have members of the General Court Martial like we have, who are members of the force, and who will reach a decision. When we are reaching a decision we start with the junior most, he gives his decision up to the senior most. In that way, with the advice of the judge advocate, justice is much better protected than where you have just one judge in other cases of other courts like even in Uganda here. That is the second principle.
 
The third principle, which is used by all those General Court Martials, is the principle of getting the facts and how you get to the facts, where you use the prosecution and the defence. In all military court martials they always provide lawyers of the court to help anybody who might not have his own advocate or his own lawyer, to make sure that every person who appears before a court martial is advised legally and properly, to make sure that the law is taken into consideration.
 
Based on those three principles, in the present arrangement, as contained in the Bill and in the original UPDF Act, there is no basic requirement to insist on having lawyers to be advocates as a means of reaching justice. That is what I wanted to give this House that, if we are to match with the region, with the continent and international court martials, those three principles should go in mind and we do not need necessarily to insist on being judges or being lawyers. Thank you.
 
MR MBABAZI: So, Mr Chairman, of course, I do not doubt my sisters, hon. Kiraso Beatrice and hon. Dora Byamukama, although I do not have vivid recollection of that and ordinarily, I should not have even proposed myself, but you know under the pressures of time you never know. However, my firm view really, because this is a studied position, is that we should not have that restriction. In fact, the practice should be that where we can get lawyers, why not, we should use them; but for the law to demand that there must be lawyers, it will cause problems unnecessarily.
 
MS KIRASO: Mr Chairman, the explanation given by  I do not know whether the ranks have changed, I am sorry  hon. Lt Gen. Elly Tumwine, I think it is very good information to the House if it is based on research, and I wish that information had come to the committee or even to the House earlier. I know from my little experience of interacting with soldiers that to them seniority in rank is a very important thing. However, I was trying to merge that seniority with the whole issue of modernization of the Army. But if the people who are going to implement this law, Mr Chairman, feel that seniority and the other issues that hon. Tumwine has talked about are what it takes for somebody to sit and chair a court martial, really one way or another we have to get this thing out of the way.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Well, then I put the question that the proposed I think Clause 195 (Interruption)
 
MR MBABAZI: Before you think of amendment, I can see you are looking at Clause 193 -(Interjection)- no, we said we are looking at Clause 195, which are the amendments circulated from me and now it is Clause 195 and it reads as follows, 195(1), the marginal note is General Court Martial: There shall be a General Court Martial for the defence forces, which shall consist of:
 
(a) A Chairperson who shall not be below the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.
(b) Two senior officers.
(c) Two junior officers.
(d) A Political Commissar.
(e) One non-commissioned officer.
 
All of whom shall be appointed by the High Command for a period of one year. That is sub-clause (1).
 
Sub-clause (2): The General Court Martial shall have unlimited original jurisdiction under this Act, and shall hear and determine all appeals referred to it from decisions of division courts martial and unit disciplinary committees.
 
Sub-clause (3): The General Court Martial shall have revisionary powers in respect of any finding, sentence or order made or imposed by any summary trial court or authority or unit disciplinary committee to be exercised in accordance with the provisions of part 13 of this Act;
 
And sub-clause (4): The General Court Martial may sit at any place. So, that is currently what used to be Clause 193.
 
MR RUHINDI: Mr Chairman, yes, I think in view of that amendment by the minister and in view of what Lt Gen. Elly Tumwine has said - and in any case even my previous position was a bit sympathetic to the operations of the Army, that the efficiency they deserve, the timeliness and everything, it may be very difficult to always want a lawyer at any one given time. But I think a fair compromise would be that we should specify that the presiding judge should preferably be an advocate. It is not vague, Mr Chairman. It would be a guiding principle, preferably meaning that if actually at that level a Lieutenant Colonel or a Major or whoever has to preside, there is an advocate who can do that job, that person should be there and does it. That is my amendment.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Well, let us dispose of this.
 
LT GEN. TUMWINE: I think they forgot to put the important aspect of a judge advocate as a member to take care of the fears and to make sure that the law is taken into consideration, and I would think that amendment would be very useful.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, there is an amendment that we include a judge advocate. Honourable Minister, anything to say or I put the question?
 
MR MBABAZI: You see, Mr Chairman, I was looking for the relevant provision. The judge advocate is not supposed to be a member of the court, he is supposed to be an officer of the court. There is a difference between  you know, it is like advocates of court (Interruption)
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, if you accept the principle, we can find a paragraph that there should also be a judge advocate who will not be a member, but we put it there.
 
MR MBABAZI: I accept the principle. I was only looking for it because it should be somewhere there, but not as a member of the court.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, yes. Maybe you want to put it under Clause 197, staff of court.
 
MR MBABAZI: Yes, that is what I was looking for.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
 
MR MBABAZI: Staff of court. You know, it has something like, There shall be at any proceedings of a Court Martial or Unit Disciplinary Committee the following officers appointed by the High Command or any other authority as may be authorized in that behalf by the High Command,
 
a) A Secretary, who shall record all the proceedings of the court.
 
b) An advocate or in the case of a Unit Disciplinary Committee, a paralegal, who shall sit on and advise the court during its proceedings on the law and procedure.
 
c) A prosecutor.
 
That sort of covers that one, so I was looking for it.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Well, why do you not say, after (e), then you put something about this type of court, who will be a judge advocate so that people are  Clause 195, you can find a place there and say a judge advocate or an officer of the court.
 
MR MBABAZI: Well, I am not sure because a judge advocate is at a particular level. So, we prefer to use what I read an advocate because a judge advocate is at a very high level and you can only have one. Since you may have many courts, you are safer to say an advocate rather than restricting yourself.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Honourable Ruhindi, does that meet your - that there will be an advocate. Honourable members, when you look at Clause 197 of the original text itself, marginal note, A staff of court and Clause 171(2), Staff of Field Court Martial  &including a secretary to record the proceedings shall be appointed by the deploying authority, which shall also appoint a legal officer to advise the court on the law of procedure and evidence. We disposed of that clause. Will this not take care of what you want in clause 195, which is currently before us?
 
MR MBABAZI: Mr Chairman, I really accept that because it takes care of the point we were making.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I now put the question that Clause 195 in the report, which is here, stand part of the Bill.
 
(Question put and agreed to.)
 
Clause 195, as amended, agreed to.
 

MR KABAREEBE: Mr Chairman and honourable members, honourable Dora Byamukama raised Clause 92 about the maternity (Interruption)
 
THE CHAIRMAN: That is re-commital.
 
MR RUHINDI: There was a small amendment, which was stood over, because when you were reading the clauses, which were passed, I think we had reached clause 246, clause 247?
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Clause 247?
 
MR RUHINDI: Yes, and there was a small amendment, because I had wanted a detailed amendment in respect of meetings, which are to be held under the Act or under this Bill. But after talking with the minister, we agreed that we add a p under Clause 247(2).
 
THE CHAIRMAN: We add a b?
 
MR RUHINDI: P under Clause 247(2) to read, The procedure to be observed in the conduct of meetings under this Act.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: I put the question to the proposed amendment.
 
(Question put and agreed to.)
 
Clause 247, as amended, agreed to.
 

MR KABAREEBE: I thank you very much, Mr Chairman. Clause 2 was stood over so that it could be revisited after all the clauses in the Bill have been considered. Now that they are considered, the minister has the appropriate definitions of all the clauses.
  
THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
 
MR MBABAZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. If I may start with what we talked about a short while ago (Interruption)
 
THE CHAIRMAN: The Chair should have a copy of these amendments; this is an important clause.
 
MR MBABAZI: Mr Chairman, simply look at the Bill as we originally presented it because we do not have big changes.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: Honourable Member, this is an important clause because it is going to affect many things as you realize. When we considered Article 69 about defence forces, originally it meant Uganda Peoples Defence Forces; but other people I think considered that it should be wider than Uganda Peoples Defence Force.
 
Do you not really think that we leave this alone because you have disposed of others, so that you prepare yourself about this interpretation because the interpretation clause is important as it is the one to make you understand the Bill, so that all of you will go and consider what kind of amendments you have to effect in this interpretation clause.
 
MR AMAMA MBABAZI: Mr Chairman, I accept your proposal. Thank you.
 
MS KIRASO: Mr Chairman, I am not putting the horse before the cart, I will move for re-commital at an appropriate time tomorrow for Clause 26. But, I just wanted to remind you, the honourable Minister and the Prime Minister, and the chairman of the committee, that I did put in writing my concerns regarding that Section 26. And if you do not have the copies, just for us to refresh our minds, because I am convinced that I had a very important point, a constitutional point regarding Clause 26, I have got copies here which I am ready and willing to give again so that tomorrow when we recommit this section we are all on board and we know what we are talking about. My arguments are here on paper as the Chairperson of the Budget Committee. Thank you.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: You avail me with a copy.
 
MS KIRASO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I will avail you a copy and all the honourable members who want copies.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: This is to put us on notice that there will be a recommital.
 
MR WANDERA: Mr Chairman, I did circulate the clauses that I intend to recommit; and just to refresh the minister, I intend to recommit Clause 40, Clause 13, Clause 14 and Clause 159. Just in case the minister does not have my amendments, I can make arrangements to give him and I will make them circulate around for Members.
 
MR ARAALI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. May I request that likewise the minister also gives us the amendments, which he is proposing to deliberate on tomorrow, because we do not have those amendments?
 
THE CHAIRMAN: No, he may give you if he has the copies. But what I said is that maybe that clause is very important, I will give all of you an opportunity to go and examine that particular clause; if you have any amendment you want to effect tomorrow, do so. In the same way, he is also given an opportunity to go and examine and see - you will have it tomorrow and it is tomorrow that the recommittal issue will come, but people were just giving us notice that they intend to because the recommittal can only come before we have a third reading.
 
MOTION FOR THE HOUSE TO RESUME
 
5.49
 
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (Mr Amama Mbabazi): Mr Chairman, because of the reasons you gave and the fact that the Vice Chairperson had been away, on Tuesday I had agreed with the Speaker that we would wait. So, that is why I was not quite prepared, I apologize for that.
 
Mr Chairman, I beg to move that the House do resume and the Committee of the Whole House report thereto.
 
THE CHAIRMAN: I put the question.
 
(Question put and agreed to.)
 
(The House resumed, the Speaker presiding)
 
REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE
 
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (Mr Amama Mbabazi): Mr Speaker, I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole House has considered the Bill entitled, The Uganda Peoples Defence Forces Bill, 2003 and considered Clauses 80, 195, and 247, and passed them with amendments. I beg to report.
 
MOTION FOR ADOPTION OF THE REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE
 
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE (Mr Amama Mbabazi): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the report from the Committee of the Whole House be adopted.
 
THE SPEAKER: I put the question.
 
(Question put and agreed to.)
 
THE SPEAKER: Honourable members, this brings us to the end of todays business. House is adjourned until tomorrow at 2.00 p.m.
 
(The House rose at 5.50 p.m. and adjourned until Thursday, 17 February 2005 at 2.00 p.m.)